ALL ML hunters....help needed immediately

[hhughh]

I apologize for raising the alarm, but I need some answers a little faster than I am able to acquire them due to work and such. I met with the "elders" of my hunting club tonight. We have a general membership meeting in a couple of weeks.

I have a NE fowler that I built last summer and hunted with this past season--squirrels, deer,rabbits, and turkey. They are accusing me of being unethical for doing so. Rather than a red-faced argument of I think, well I think, etc....I would prefer to have some very good quotes from sportsman magazines, etc.

Anything you can supply is greatly appreciated.

Thanks in advance,

Hugh

 

[PreglerD]

Hello from Germany!

For better understanding: they accuse you of being unethical doing what? While you are using a ML or a fowler? So when it is because of the ML, it is a legal hunting gun in the USA when I read it right. And a loaded ML is a full usable rifle comparable to a single shot cartridge gun.

If it is because of the fowler use (I guess a smoothie) then tell them that good fowlers shoot their PRB up to 50 meters as accurate as rifles and that the use of an open sight is certainly not unethical, it only needs more training and skills of the hunter. Here in Germany the use of open sights at drive hunts is more and more coming up.

I hope these are some argues!

Regards

Kirrmeister

 

[hhughh]

The discussion was about using the smoothbore for squirrels, turkeys, etc. I use prb for deer, of course, and shot for the rest. This guy wanted me to explain why I thought it was ethical to hunt squirrels and turkeys with a ML. (smoothbore)

 

[bigbore442001]

This sounds very strange to me. You stated that you hunted the past season with your fowler.Were you successful and if so,do you have any pictures to show that the gun you made is up to the job?

Something doesn't sound right about this club. I belong to a club for hunting and shooting without this attitude. People hunt using any legal means they want to use and nobody gets in their way.

Do you have a copy of Sam Fadala's Complete Book of Black Powder? If so, he has some good information on smoothbores.

Again, this doesn't sound right in the first place.

 

[Rancocas]

I, too, am confused over just what your club members think is unethical.
Where, or what country are you located in?
Fowlers are historical firearms that have always been used for hunting small game, as well as large game when using a patched, single round ball. Modern shotguns are basically the same thing and who can denigh their use in taking millions of squirrels, rabbits, waterfowl, and even deer?
I cannot understand the objection to your choice of weapon. Or, is their objection actually not about the weapon, but about your particular hunting practises?
If it is the weapon they question, perhaps you could load up and give them a demonstration of its shot pattern and penetration to prove that it is adaquate for the job.

 

[chuck-ia]

I can't imagine why they would think it unethical, these old guns have been used for hunting for hundreds of years. Some folks just have a hard time trying to understand why we use these guns. flinch

 

[Mountainman56]

I don't understand what they think is "unethical". Is it the fact that it is a firearm capable of using both shot and solid projectiles (as is any modern shotgun) or just the fact that it is a muzzleloader (which doesn't make any damn sense at all)?

 

[roundball]

If they are a rifle oriented club and think a smoothbore is unethical because you have a better chance at taking game...like a turkey...than with a single projectile rifle, a huge defense is the issue of "fair chase" and hunting skills...you HAVE to be good enough to call a turkey in close for a shotgun...whereas with a rifle you can sit back and shoot them all day at long unsuspecting distances across fields, etc...that's not hunting, that's just shooting...taking turkey with a smoothbore is one of the hardest forms of hunting that there is...and its real hunting, not just shooting.

ANOTHER POINT YOU CAN ARGUE:
Taking squirrels with a smoothbore allows you to shoot up into trees and be 100% safe, not having a lead ball come down somewhere and possibly hit another person in the head, etc. And if THEY are shooting rifles up into trees they are being unsafe to others.

ALSO:
How many heads of game can the rifle boys shoot on the wing vs. the ability of a smoothbore to take doves, pheasants, ducks, geese, crows, etc, etc on the wing.

Sound like a bunch of small minded people if you ask me...

 

Hugh,
Them 'elders' sound silly :yakyak:
:v

 

[hhughh]

Thanks to all who have answered. I'll try to give more information.

I'm in Louisiana. No rifles allowed for turkeys. No "exclusive" rifle users. These are all people who use shotguns for virtually everything but deer. The strict objection was, "Do you think it's ethical to hunt squirrels and turkeys with black powder?"
My immediate answer, thinking maybe someone misunderstood was: "It's a shotgun (I didn't try to get really involved with the technicalities of "fowler", etc, but anyway) it's not a rifle.
Response: "I didn't ask if it was legal; I asked why do you think it's ethical."

This, when some (a very few, admittedly) of our other members bowhunt turkeys. We have no "separate" season down here for any game other than deer, which has a bow season, and--till this year--a ML season. Read the regs last night, and found we're now one of those "primitive firearm" states.....meaning ML season now includes breechloading, smokeless, single shots larger than 38 caliber. So it goes........but I still wish someone out there had some good literature on "ethical primitive hunting."

Thanks again.

Hugh

 

[BrownBear]

I't a shotgun. One that loads from the front, one component at a time, rather than from the back all at once with a shotshell. Other than black powder versus smokeless, the other components are the same. Takes you several minutes to reload after one shot. How can that be less ethical than a magazine fed shell shucker?

If they don't get it, I'd say it's time for another hunting club. There's got to be more at work than just the BP issue, or else they're off the chart.

 

[roundball]

Then the answer is simple...of course it's ethical...muzzleloading and ML smoothbores have been ethical for a few hundred years...settled this country, put food on the table for the population, fought wars, etc.

If they want to have further discussion, then you need to turn this around and make him/them state why THEY even think to ask such a question...ie: it must mean THEY think its unethical so get THEM to state why...and once they make a claim then you can address a specific point and pick them off one at a time...you need to put this monkey on THEIR backs...and frankly, make them squirm a little by asking them why don't THEY take up the challenge and use MLs...put the hunt back in hunting, etc.

Bottom line, there's no question they are ethical...like many here I use nothing but Flintlocks now for all my hunting and shooting year round...deer, turkey, squirrels, doves, crows, and this September am making my debut on geese.

If I couldn't hunt with muzzleloaders I'd probably give up hunting...I'm no longer interested in the "how many"...I'm only interested in the "how"

 

[paulvallandigham]

Do they think that Black Powder is so weak that the shot will bounce off a rabbit, or squirrel, or dove? Perhaps you can best explain reality to them by taking out one of those 46 oz. juice cans, set it out at 25 or 30 yards, and fire your load at the can. Once they see how many holes you put in the can, and how well they penetrate, any question about the gun's ability to kill game humanely should be resolved in your favor.

They may also be thinking you intend to use a cylinder bore shotgun for game over 35 yards. Dispell that notion. It would not matter if you were using BP or smokeless powder to understand that the lack of choke limits the range at which you can reliably hit targets.

Mostly, Don't let them bully you. Challenge them to come up with "PROOF " that BP is an inadequate propellant. This guy sounds like he's been reading Toby Bridges, who we all know is full of baloney.

If you have the Lyman Black Powder book, by Sam Fadala, second edition, it has load data in it for most gauges, with both velocities and energy figures.

I would recommend using #6 or #5 shot for squirrels, and rabbits, but use #8 shot for close shots on rising birds. If they are flushing ahead, I switch to #7 1/2 or #6 shot. I use #5 shot in my guns when hunting pheasants, because they are a large bird, and often flush well in front of me. I know I can bring them down at 30 yards as if I hit them with a sledge hammer, using #5 shot loads.

Both #5 and #4 shot will do a number on those metal cans at 30 yards, often penetrating both sides.

Those suggestions would be my " props" for debating these idiots.

The problem with shotgun loads is not the propellant, but the size of the pellets, and the fact that they lose velocity so fast, regardless if they are fired in front of BP or smokeless powder. As long as you pick your shots, and pass on long shots, you are more likely to bag game with BP, than they are Shooting at anything that moves with smokeless powder.

 

[rabjr]

"Do you think it's ethical to hunt squirrels and turkeys with black powder?"

Ask them all how long their family's have been from that general area. You don't have to go back very far to find their relatives surviving off the land using black powder arms.

 

[Pork Chop]

The strict objection was, "Do you think it's ethical to hunt squirrels and turkeys with black powder?"
My immediate answer, thinking maybe someone misunderstood was: "It's a shotgun (I didn't try to get really involved with the technicalities of "fowler", etc, but anyway) it's not a rifle.
Response: "I didn't ask if it was legal; I asked why do you think it's ethical."

My response would have been "Yes, I firmly believe that it is ethical. The use of muzzleloaders for hunting has a long and rich history. More technical skill is needed for the proper loading and maintenance of a muzzleloader than a centerfire. The reality of a reduced chance of a follow up shot means that each shot must count. All that being said, why do YOU think that it is UNethical?"

 

[Britsmoothy]

Sounds like your stuck with some communistic types!
I have the same problems with the British Firearms licensing dept, they won't allow me to hunt anything with a M/L rifle or smooth rifle because it is inhumane, thier words , but on a shotgun cert I can use a M/l shotgun for what ever.
I have lost track of the times I have asked why is a BP M/L shotgun deemed humane but a rifle is not!
The best was when they tried to tell me a ball is not a componant desighned to expand :youcrazy: So I asked them to explain what is the expanding medium commonly found in a jacketed bullet-lead they answered to which I pointed out is the exact same stuff a ball is made of but alas the communists will not grant me one.
Britain is not the land of the free.
Sounds like your guys are trying to be Politically correct but that only means they will turn on each other as the try to pasify the antis,
communism forgets the wishes of the individual and you must comform to the consensus.
In other words just do it and ignor the b@$!@£*s like I do :hatsoff:

Britsmoothy

phew I feel better now :wink:

 

[roundball]

"...In other words just do it and ignor the b@$!@£*s like I do..."

My kind of man !!
:hatsoff:

 

[Britsmoothy]

Yeah it sucks over here, crumby country.
Everybody is inward looking making sure every one is being "normal" :barf:
I have never been normal and by the looks of m' I never want to be :hatsoff:
Ya cant even use a bow for hunting :shake: I'll rephrase that, I aint supposed to use my bow for hunting :wink:

Britsmoothy.

 

[oneeye]

The discussion was about using the smoothbore for squirrels, turkeys, etc. I use prb for deer, of course, and shot for the rest. This guy wanted me to explain why I thought it was ethical to hunt squirrels and turkeys with a ML. (smoothbore)

Your issue would be easily solved if it was me. I would find a new club to belong to and I will tell them to "go fly". :blah:
Dan

 

[FishDFly]

Simply ask them, what does the Club consider "unethical" with what you are shooting, put the burden back where it started.

RDE