Alliant MZ

[Kapow]

Was told this is the only black powder I can buy locally. Just wondering if anyone has had a chance to give it a run and whether it behaves and performs like black powder (well more so than some substitutes).

Before you get on your soapboxes about just using real B.P. I have looked into this one a bit and have heard that it may be pretty close to the real thing so just wanting to hear from those who have actually used it. In particular how does it go in flintlocks?

 

[MSW]

sounds interesting ... let me 'armchair general' this...

the problem we have here in the USA is that the government (insert political tirade here) classifies 'real' black powder as an 'explosive' and puts all sort of restrictions on it's manufacture, distribution and sale.

the 'substitute' powders are classed as 'propellants,' so there aren't the same dance around the flagpole nanny- state restrictions and regulations (insert another political tirade here).

the crux of the matter (in my view, anyway) is whether the 'sub' will reliably ignite in the pan, and whether the resulting flash will reliably ignite the charge in the barrel. all the subs I've tried will not do this, because their ignition point is well above that of 'real' black powder, so reliability (and therefore accuracy / repeatability) is highly problematic at best.

if, however, this stuff will get the job done in a flintlock system, i'd love to know.

best of luck, and please do keep us apprised of your progress!

make good smoke!

:wink:

 

[Claude Mathis]

Our search function works really well. There are several discussion about "Alliant".
http://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/...d/283919/post/1328335/hl/Alliant/fromsearch/1/

 

[BEP]

Following Claude's link, I found a MSDS sheet that shows an ignition temperature of 670 degrees F. This is significantly higher than black powder, although it is slightly lower than Pyrodex, triple 7 and other subs.

 

[pargent]

REAL black is available local to you because I compete with guys from your area, NSW has a fairly large b/p community .DOWN HERE real b/p is far more popular for use in competitions , it seems that shops prey on the guys that predomently hunt only to flog off their stock of subs they got conned into buying , the subs will work in your cap guns but not as prime or charge in your flintlock .

 

[dcriner]

Based on Sneezy's data, Alliant MZ will perform poorly, if at all, in flintlock pans. Kapow, those of us with blackpowder available, are unlikely to ever try the substitutes - if Alliant is available, try it and let us know the results.

 

[Kapow]

Thanks Claude, I did find that info but was hoping for someone who had actually used it in flintlocks and brave enough to put their hand up without fear of being burned as a witch to give me their opinion. Lots of theory but not a lot of first hand testing.

If it was as good as real black and transport issues made it easier to get then yes I would use it. I am sceptical but open to trying something new rather than just repeating what the last guy said. The last can of blackpowder I bought, I had to wait over six months for. The writing is on the wall (hopefully not) that blackpowder may be unavailable to me/us in the foreseeable future.

 

[pargent]

The trick is to buy a reasonable supply as it is all imported , the importer orders in what he thinks he can sell each year , contact some SSAA b/p competers in your area to find a supply .

 

[Zonie]

Go ahead and try it in your flintlock.

If it works like Pyrodex did in mine, expect it to fire about 30 percent of the time on the first attempt. Who knows? It might do better than that.

If it does prove to be unreliable you can always pour 4-5 grains of real black powder down the bore and load the Alliant main charge on top of it. Lean the gun slightly so the touch hole is pointed toward the ground so the small primer will pile up on that side of the bore.

If the real BP primer charge is enough to cover the touch hole it will probably fire quite well.

I do doubt that the Alliant will work well for priming. Even if it ignites the substitute black powders don't "flash" with enough force to drive the flame front thru the touch hole.

 

[bpd303]

Ok, with raised hand.

I tried it in one of my flintlocks. I had some to try in my BP cartridge guns, which worked fine in them. In the flintlock it was a dismal failure. In the pan it would not ignite after 5-6 tries and this is in a gun that sparks well and never misfires with real black powder.

I then tried ffffg in the pan and it flashed fine but the main charge would not ignite until I trickled some ffffg through the flash hole.

I then tried a duplex load with fffg under the Alliant and ffffg in the pan. It ignited but with a noticeable lag in the ignition time. Thus ended my venture into Alliant in my flintlocks.

 

[Kapow]

Thankyou, that is what I was looking for. I won't bother with it. Not until I am really desperate anyway.

 

[don hepler]

I use Black MZ in ROA's, .32 and .36 cap lock rifles. It must be packed tight for accurate groups. It will not work in a flintlock, as is. Now adding real BP,(might) make it work, but I'm not going there. It cleans up easy, especially good in small calibers, because of less residue and build up. Easier to clean in BP revolvers, again, less residue. That's my experience with it, so far.

 

[Claude Mathis]

Thanks Claude, I did find that info but was hoping for someone who had actually used it in flintlocks and brave enough to put their hand up without fear of being burned as a witch to give me their opinion. Lots of theory but not a lot of first hand testing.

There are quite a few posts on the Forum stating that subs don't work well in flintlocks.

 

[bpd303]

Yes but I live so close to the Missouri line ya gotta "show me", besides I'm always up for a little experimentation, just not with smokeless.

 

[Shotar]

From what we can tell, Black MZ is made for Alliant by American Pioneer Powder. It is basically the same stuff. Now as to working in a flinter.

It will not reliably ignite in the pan. It may or it may not. I have tried it with a pan charge of 4f goex, and a main charge of American Pioneer. This combination worked fine with a barely perceptible lag in main charge ignition. Natural Goex was instant. No perception of a lag in main charge ignition.

I use American Pioneer as plinking powder in my percussion relovers. The key reason is that the fowling is so little that I can shoot all day without cleaning. In addition, the cleaning procedure is just water and dry. I have left it sit for days without corrosion. This is sometimes important to me.

Conclusion, it is fine if your goal is to conserve a limited supply of Natural black powder or in percussion arms.

It has slightly less bump per charge than 777 or real BP, so might want to add 10gr for same velocity. It also likes to be compressed at loading. Make sure everything is tight.

 

[Kapow]

Wasn't interested in 'subs' but rather one brand in particular for a specific reason. There is lots of info on here about everything but is that no reason to start a new thread? If it is then this forum will die a natural death. Look how much good new info I got.

Thanks for making such a great asset available to me.