Alternative Ignition Mechanisms

[Newbert]

I was disassembling my Flintlock today just to familiarize myself with the thing better and I had a thought. In a muzzeloader the barrel is really the "Core" of the device. As in, its the thing that matters most in terms of safety, accuracy, etc.

Since the barrel is fully removable there isn't really any reason I couldn't break out the chisels and fashion another stock to slot it into.

Obviously the "lock" mechanism is in itself a piece of important engineering but if you were really in a pinch you could really use anything to ignite a pan and the primary charge.

So I thought about some odd or interesting ideas:

Slow Match Lever
You could very easily use pins and strips of metal to fashion a real old school slow match mechanism to dip into a pan. It wouldn't require high tensions springs or any complex movement

Reverse Flintlock
Modern day "Flint" is actually the alloy Ferrocerium which sparks easily whenever a piece of metal abrates it. You could make a lock that strikes at a "frizzen" of Ferro Rod with a piece of metal. It would be possibly cheaper and simpler to replace as they sell them cheap all over. The sparks are much hotter as theyre magnesium but it wouldn't matter as much as jts your own materials

[Removed due to misinformed concepts]

These are all interesting projects I thought of. Normally id say of course "tinkering" with a gun is a BIG TIME bad idea if you dont know what you're doing, but given the fact these are essentially alternative ways of just utilizing a standard barrel that is made to the correct and safe specifications I think they would be fine.

 

[sussexmuzllodr]

All novel ideas.
But all moved to the side..

 

[deerstalkert]

i think i and my sidekick in crime and foolishness tried most if not all of the cockamamie ideas put forth above about 70 years ago. surprisingly we both still have ten fingers(ok make that 9 1/2) ten toes, both eyes, though vision is much degraded, both ears, both of which are just ornamental, most teeth, even if my partner puts his in a glass at night.
every idea above has been tried by every new generation of BP addicts.
and " Flints " are not the alloy Ferrocerium actually. if you were a real flintlock shooter you would know this.
but by all means experiment. may actually discover something useful.
me, i will just keep tripping the sear and watch the smoke erupt from both ends.

 

[Newbert]

i think i and my sidekick in crime and foolishness tried most if not all of the cockamamie ideas put forth above about 70 years ago. surprisingly we both still have ten fingers(ok make that 9 1/2) ten toes, both eyes, though vision is much degraded, both ears, both of which are just ornamental, most teeth, even if my partner puts his in a glass at night.
every idea above has been tried by every new generation of BP addicts.
and " Flints " are not the alloy Ferrocerium actually. if you were a real flintlock shooter you would know this.
but by all means experiment. may actually discover something useful.
me, i will just keep tripping the sear and watch the smoke erupt from both ends.

I guess history is doomed to repeat itself haha.

I do know that true flint and steel is a flint stone and a steel frizzen. I meant that what most people call flint, the flint in a lighter, or the striker on a torch or the flint and steel you buy at a camping store are ferro rods

 

[sussexmuzllodr]

While a small heater coil could be incorporated into a pan and ignited by a push button and battery most States do not honor the Method allowing only the time tested Flint and Frizzen.
As it should be...

 

[Newbert]

While a small heater coil could be incorporated into a pan and ignited by a push button and battery most States do not honor the Method allowing only the time tested Flint and Frizzen.
As it should be...

Oh is that not legal? I will amend my post to exclude it

 

[sussexmuzllodr]

Oh is that not legal? I will amend my post to exclude it

I mean it can be done and would probably provide great ignition.
I know in the F&G guide in Pa. it is mentioned and excluded from use.
I think many have monkeyed around with your posted methods just for Shytes and Giggles....

 

[Newbert]

I mean it can be done and would probably provide great ignition.
I know in the F&G guide in Pa. it is mentioned and excluded from use.
I think many have monkeyed around with your posted methods just for Shytes and Giggles....

Better safe than sorry though. The old ways are the best from what im hearing. The carpentry of making another stock sounds fun still

 

[sussexmuzllodr]

4
(b) Crossbow deer season.
(1) Permitted devices. It is lawful to hunt deer during the crossbow
deer season with any of the following devices:
(i) A bow and arrow. A bow must have a peak draw weight of
at least 35 pounds. An arrow must be equipped with a broadhead that has an outside diameter or
width of at least 7/8 inch with at least two cutting edges located on the same plane throughout the
length of the cutting surface, and may not exceed 3 inches in length.
(ii) A crossbow and bolt. A crossbow must have a peak draw
weight of at least 125 pounds. A bolt must be equipped with a broadhead that has an outside
diameter or width of at least 7/8 inch with at least two cutting edges located on the same plane
throughout the length of the cutting surface, and may not exceed 3 inches in length.
(2) Prohibitions. While hunting deer during the crossbow deer season,
it is unlawful to:
(i) Use or possess a firearm, except a person may possess
certain firearms during the crossbow deer season under the authorizations of section 2525 of the
act (relating to possession of firearm for protection of self or others).
(ii) Use a device not provided for in the act or in this
subsection.
(c) Flintlock muzzleloading deer season.
(1) Permitted devices. It is lawful to hunt deer during the flintlock
muzzleloading deer season with any of the following devices:
(i) A muzzleloading firearm. The firearm must be an original
or similar reproduction of muzzleloading firearm manufactured prior to 1800. The firearm's
ignition mechanism must consist of a hammer containing a naturally occurring stone that is
spring propelled onto an iron or steel frizzen which, in turn, creates sparks to ignite a priming
powder. The firearm must have open sights and be a .44 caliber or larger single-barrel long gun
or a .50 caliber or larger single-barrel handgun that propels single projectile ammunition.



From the Pa. Fish and game Guide

 

[sussexmuzllodr]

Better safe than sorry though. The old ways are the best from what im hearing. The carpentry of making another stock sounds fun still

Its still fun to experiment with alternatives

 

[Newbert]

Its still fun to experiment with alternatives

In my country the definition is a little looser. Its about ownership at all and to be an "Antique" it must ignite via either flintlock matchlock or wheel lock. It also needs to be a long gun and cant take cartridges of any kind. Also no percussion caps.

My thinking was basically matchlock with a safer more reliable source of heat but I guess it's best to honor what the intention of the law is, to allow reproductions of traditional muzzleloaders

 

[Grenadier1758]

Most of of those methods or similar have been tried to be supplanted by the faster to ignite flint lock and eventually percussion lock. Okay, the wheel lock with the iron pyrite throwing sparks from the spinning wheel may have been fast, but the complexity and fragility of the lock took it on the path to obsolescence. The heated coil is probably a bit slower than a well tuned flint lock and it is hard to ignite black powder grains with a piezoelectric spark.

 

[Newbert]

Most of of those methods or similar have been tried to be supplanted by the faster to ignite flint lock and eventually percussion lock. Okay, the wheel lock with the iron pyrite throwing sparks from the spinning wheel may have been fast, but the complexity and fragility of the lock took it on the path to obsolescence. The heated coil is probably a bit slower than a well tuned flint lock and it is hard to ignite black powder grains with a piezoelectric spark.

I read about the wheel lock being complex yeah! I guess it was good when you had someone with watchmaker tools carefully maintaining it but when you need to go out into the new world and feed your family or wage a war you want something simple and clean like the flintlock

 

[Loyalist Dave]

Reverse Flintlock
Modern day "Flint" is actually the alloy Ferrocerium which sparks easily whenever a piece of metal abrates it. You could make a lock that strikes at a "frizzen" of Ferro Rod with a piece of metal. It would be possibly cheaper and simpler to replace as they sell them cheap all over. The sparks are much hotter as theyre magnesium but it wouldn't matter as much as jts your own materials

I've been told that the US Army flintlock demonstration team has been doing that since the 1970's. The frizzens are rough like a dull file, and the Jaws hold ferro-rod instead of a flint. No ignition worries.

At first I thought you were thinking of one of these:

Also in the 1970's there were the Atomic Frizzens, which were faced with a depleted uranium. Sparked great. ALSO would light up a geiger-counter.

LD

 

[Newbert]

I've been told that the US Army flintlock demonstration team has been doing that since the 1970's. The frizzens are rough like a dull file, and the Jaws hold ferro-rod instead of a flint. No ignition worries.

At first I thought you were thinking of one of these:

View attachment 364498

Also in the 1970's there were the Atomic Frizzens, which were faced with a depleted uranium. Sparked great. ALSO would light up a geiger-counter.

LD

Oh that's interesting, so the jaw itself strikes a ferro rod against a steel frizzen, that's clever. I might be tempted to try that if I do make an alternate stock for my rifle.

 

[Rebel bull]

there are occasionally to be found for sale on the various sites but they are a flint replacement that takes a lighter flint and wheel that rides on the frizzen imagine a bic lighter in the cock supposedly they work great and the flint lasts forever I couldn't find a picture of one

 

[Loyalist Dave]

there are occasionally to be found for sale on the various sites but they are a flint replacement that takes a lighter flint and wheel that rides on the frizzen imagine a bic lighter in the cock supposedly they work great and the flint lasts forever I couldn't find a picture of one

I'm surprised that nobody has introduced some sort of replacement for the touchhole liner/caplock drum, that using a battery, and a button on the trigger, causes an instant arc of electricity between two contacts within the breech to set off what was previously a flintlock rifle or a caplock rifle's main charge, selling the idea as A) weatherproof and B) Instant so no hang fires.

The irony would be that based on many definitions of an antique firearm, such an ignition system, not being a copy of an antique system, would make that rifle or gun now a modern rifle or gun and subject to those laws, even IF it was loaded at the muzzle using black powder....

LD