Am I using the right ball size?

[Analog]

I picked up a used CVA .54 cal side lock and it came with a box of 54 _(.530) cal Hornady lead round balls. I did some sighting in at ~ 35 yds with 90 grains of American Pioneer FFG (with lubed patch). I noticed that it was somewhat erratic in patterning. After cleaning, I used a digital micrometer and measured the barrel end groove-to-groove distance of .554", and .535" land-to-land.

I was hoping someone with more experience could give me some advice. Is a Mini-ball a better alternative, or am I just using the wrong ball? Or am I just a bad shot?

thanks for the advice! :thumbsup:

 

[rabjr]

Didn't say how thick your patches are or what they look like after firing.

 

[Analog]

Didn't say how thick your patches are or what they look like after firing.

Oh, the patches are the pre-lubed CVAs which measured to ~0.011".

I found one of the patches on the snow after shooting, and it looked like I could easily use it again, as it had little fouling or signs of trauma. Is that a clue?

 

[JWP]

Drop down on the powder to 65 or 70 grains and see if that makes a difference. :thumbsup:

 

[jtmattison]

I'd go to a .535 ball and pillow ticking patch.

HD

 

[rabjr]

Yeah definitely drop the powder charge and see how it is. Theres a thread here you can look at about patches.[url] http://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/fusionbb/showtopic.php?tid/215193/post/new/#NEW[/url]

 

[Analog]

Yeah definitely drop the powder charge and see how it is. Theres a thread here you can look at about patches.[url] http://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/fusionbb/showtopic.php?tid/215193/post/new/#NEW[/url]

I just added a picture of the patch - what do you think?

 

[paulvallandigham]

Analog: I think you need to measure the lands again. Most of those barrels are right on at .540". Use a .530 RB( measure them, too!)and a .015 to .018" patch, and you should get good accuracy. I don't know why your are shooting American Pioneer powder. Use Black powder. You can order it shipped to your door, and if you buy a case(25 lbs.), the cost will be about $12.00 per pound, shipping and haz mat fees included. Put together an order with your buddies. You can order smaller amounts, but the Haz Mat fee is $20.00, per shipment, regardless of what amount is shipped. Powder, Inc. and Graf& sons will sell you powder at discounted prices for as little as 5 lbs in your order. There is another powder suppliers up in Maine that also sells at good prices. Check the member Resources section at the top of the Index page here, and look for " Links ".

When anyone decides to use something other than Black powder, they are on their own. This is a traditional Muzzle loading site, and most of us shoot Black Powder because its a TRADITION! Most of the subs have to be used up quickly or they begin to deterriorate from the air they are exposed to after you open the cans. Black powder remains stable and useable for many years. I shot some of Dad's powder that he bought in the 1950s, and it shot just fine.

Its fairly common to find grooves that are cut .007 to .008" deep in the Hawken style rifles that were made by CVA, and Thompson, and others( .554-.540 = .014; divided by 2 = depth of rifling). There are a few commercially made rifles with rifling cut deeper, but I don't believe any of the current manufacturers are doing so. Custom barrel makers can, of course, cut your rifling as deep as you want.

 

[slowpokebr549]

Thicker patch, or bigger ball, and back off that powder a might. Try 70 gr of 3f.

 

[Analog]

Analog: I think you need to measure the lands again. Most of those barrels are right on at .540". Use a .530 RB( measure them, too!)and a .015 to .018" patch, and you should get good accuracy. I don't know why your are shooting American Pioneer powder. Use Black powder. You can order it shipped to your door, and if you buy a case(25 lbs.), the cost will be about $12.00 per pound, shipping and haz mat fees included. Put together an order with your buddies. You can order smaller amounts, but the Haz Mat fee is $20.00, per shipment, regardless of what amount is shipped. Powder, Inc. and Graf& sons will sell you powder at discounted prices for as little as 5 lbs in your order. There is another powder suppliers up in Maine that also sells at good prices. Check the member Resources section at the top of the Index page here, and look for " Links ".

When anyone decides to use something other than Black powder, they are on their own. This is a traditional Muzzle loading site, and most of us shoot Black Powder because its a TRADITION! Most of the subs have to be used up quickly or they begin to deterriorate from the air they are exposed to after you open the cans. Black powder remains stable and useable for many years. I shot some of Dad's powder that he bought in the 1950s, and it shot just fine.

Its fairly common to find grooves that are cut .007 to .008" deep in the Hawken style rifles that were made by CVA, and Thompson, and others( .554-.540 = .014; divided by 2 = depth of rifling). There are a few commercially made rifles with rifling cut deeper, but I don't believe any of the current manufacturers are doing so. Custom barrel makers can, of course, cut your rifling as deep as you want.

Thanks for the advice. I used that particular powder, because there is no shop within 75 miles of here that sells real black powder. I'll measure the ball diameter just to compare.

 

[Zonie]

Analog:
As you will find after shooting your rifle more, each one of these things is different.
The only way you can determine what your gun likes is to shoot it using different powder loads, different patch thickness's and different ball sizes.

The picture of your patch looks good. No tears, no burn thru's, no cuts...
That indicates a good barrel and the powder charge isn't excessive.
It does not mean that is the powder/patch/ball combination your gun really likes though.

Try some .015 and some .018 thick patch material with the .530 balls.
If your local store doesn't have .018 thick patch material and you have a Wal-Mart or similar store near you which sells cloth you should check them out. The "Pillow ticking" that is 100 percent pure cotton and is either blue/white or red/white striped works well.
Actually any tight weave cloth will work but you have to make sure it is 100 percent cotton. If it has any synthetic material in it it will melt when the gun is fired.

As for powder, I sympathize with you as I know a number of people are in the same boat.
That said, be aware that all of the synthetic black powders have a higher flash point than black powder does. This often results in anything from a almost unnoticeable delay to a delay of a second or more.
The only ways to deal with this is to buy real black powder, use Magnum caps or develop the habit of maintaining a long "hold thru" when firing the gun.

Have fun!

 

[bart_anastasi]

For your purposes since you already have a .530 ball I would not try a .535 as there is no real difference one or the other are equally accurate.

Having setteled on a ball diamater you can get to the real fun of shooting these things.

Also adding a new ball size will more than double the number of combinations of ball to patch trying to find a good combo.

That said stick with the ball you have you could try a tighter patch material. At wal mart I got some different types of bulk material in 6 inch lengths. To try different patch materials.

It would be a good place to start testing 80 grains of 2f BP if you had it but since you have some modern stuff again use what you have for now.

Also if you think you will be going to BP bite the bullet order a few cans and pay the has mat fee and get it over with. Preferably 2f.

 

[artkodiak]

How many times have you fired it? A friend tells me that it takes anywhere around 100 to 200 rounds for a barrel to 'settle in'. This has also been fairly consistent with my experience (self-fulfilling?). BTW, the patch looks failry good with little evidence of cutting. I've got a .50 longrifle kit I put together about 7yrs ago that still tends to cut .010 patches a bit. At any rate, now's when the fun begins ... making lots of smoke to see what works well and what works poorly. Just my two pennies worth.
ArtKodiak

 

[Analog]

Thanks for the suggestions. I wish I could order extra BP for my friends, but they have all moved on to inlines. If they can't put a couple of Pyrodex "pills" in their barrels, they're like lost sheep. Of course, they think I'm a fool to stay with the more traditional model for hunting, but hey - I like it...

:v :hatsoff:

 

[artkodiak]

No worries. I should have phrased the inquiry more carefully to be ... any idea how many times the rifle was shot? Who knows what the previous owner's experience with it is. Maybe a lousy group was enought to make him say 'to h--l with it I'm selling this p.o.s.' As for the BP issue. I'm in similar waters. When living on Kodiak, I opted to shoot 'plastic powder' as others called it. That's Pyrodex RS to the rest of us. A fella almost needs gills at times there, and right or wrong, I didn't want to monkey with the humidity vs black. One friend swore by black and flinters. One day I got bored with his misfires and felt vindicated with my 'capgun'. Now in the lower 48 (temporarily) I'm dealing with slow ignition and a fair sight of Pyrodex, so who's laughing now? I've got a buddy from the Higgin's Lake area. If he wouldn't mind carrying some powder, I may be interested in going in on a pound if you want to put together an order. As for the folks using pellets, well, I figure I'm in this gig for my pleasure, not to please others. Hopefully they're happy with they're decision. I know I'm happy with mine. Sorry so winded. Feel free to dump an email in my inbox. ArtKodiak

 

[NMRog]

I would try switching to BP first. Both my Traditions .50 and my T/C .50 would not group at all with the substitutes at 50 yards. I switched to BP and both will shoot under 2" at 100 off a rest.

 

[faw3]

I tryed a free bottle of American Pioneer in my CVA 54 Mountain a year ago or so and it just shot all over the place but cleaaaned up really nice :shake: I've used old boxer shorts at least 40% cotten fold once and the 530 ball and it shoots like a big price rifle ( to be fair I also use a Lyman front sight too.) Fred :hatsoff:

 

[paulvallandigham]

The material in the cotton shorts is usually WAY TOO THIN to use as patching. Cleaning patches, maybe, but not for patching the round ball. You need to use a caliper or micrometer, and stop at Walmart or JoAnn Fabrics, or any other store that sells fabrics, and ask for pillow ticking, or pocket drill, or muslin, or linen. All these are made from pure natural fibers. Don't use any synthetics, nor fabrics that have some synthetic material in them. Almost all clothing, including underwear, are made of " Stay press " cottons, which contain some synthetic fibers to make the fabrics wrinkle free when they come out of a dryer. Avoid them.

Look for cotton fabric that measures .015, .018, or .020" thick to use for patching the round ball. All fabrics need to be washed when you get them home to get the sizing( a form of starch) out of the fabric, then dried, before you measure them finally to determine if they can be used. Some shrinkage is good, as it tightens the weave of the fibers. Pillow ticking is more likely to be .015, or .18" thick. Pocket drill is more likely to be .020" thick. YOu can order both pre-cut patches, as well as pre-lubed patches, for your needs, as well as strips of patching material so you can cut the patches at the muzzle from many suppliers. Track of the Wolf comes to mind, as well as Dixie Gun works. The strips can be ordered in different thicknesses so you can see what will work in your gun. Measure the bore( land to land diameter), as well as the Groove diameter of your rifle with a caliper. the groove depth give you the best information in deciding what patch thickness you need for that gun. The bore diameter tells you what ball diameter to use. ( Ex. For a .540 diameter bore, choose a .530" ball diameter if you intend to use the gun to hunt, as this will allow a fairly easy loading of the barrel for a second shot.( Don't plan on getting a second shot, however.) If you are target shooting instead, you might want to try .535, and even .540" diameter balls, using a mallet to get them started down the barrel.