American fossil asks about English fusil

[Gaze]

Over in our flintlock forum, a poster suggested an "English fusil" as one possibility for circa 1770s West Virginia. I thought I move that over here

 

[Story]

[Not Gospel, just opinion] When mentioning "English" and "Fusil" in the same breath, one thinks of a carbine-like military weapon, smaller in caliber than the standard issue muskets that are it's contemporaries. Takes a bayonet. Check out the Northstar West .62 caliber officer's fusil. [/Not Gospel, just opinion]

 

[Flintandsteel]

Gabby,

I believe the confusion is one of languages. Fusil, is a French term. And as you say, usually a smoothbore. Fusil de chasse, Fusil Fin, etc.
IMHO and English gun of the same description would be called a fowler.
Same thing, different country.
:hmm:

 

[Okwaho]

Gabby,the word Fusil,pronounced fuzee is the term the French used in the 17th and 18th centuries to denote any long arm which used flint and steel for ignition. This of course precluded matchlocks which were used in parts of New France by infantry as late as 1700,thus fusil de chasse, fusil grenadier,or fusil buccaneer. In the 18th century the English military began to use the term to denote slimmed down[url] muskets.In[/url] the F&I War and the Revolutionary War you see officer's or sargeant's fusils which are lighter and have shorter barrels used by both sides.The British also used the term carbine which was was dictated by a smaller bore not the size of the weapon.Thus you see guns of "carbine bore"and full sized.It is possible,therefore,to have an officer's fusil of carbine bore.The terms "fowler or fowling piece" applied to civilian guns which could have been carried in an officer's baggage. Both the fusil and the fowler were of a high quality and would have been privately purchased by an officer and I suspect that both were purchased by officers who then carried them in their baggage and may have used either in battle.Another group of English fowlers were those cheaply made,light, but sturdy fowlers referred to as Carolina or Type G guns which were sent over for either distribution to Indians{a fairly small number} or sale to Indians and Whites alike.I hope this helps but if not ask again.
Cheers
Tom Patton :m2c:

 

[Puffer]

In Chas.E. Hanson,JR.'s book "The Northweast Gun",Says that anumber of names were used to discibe this gun in North Amer. IE: French-speaking -- "fusil",Fesee",or "fuke. English gunmakers -- :Carolina musket" -- Ashley -- "London fusil" :: ::


The "Trade gun" -- North West gun --"Hudson Bay gun -- "Mackinaw gun".

Puffer

 

[Stumpkiller]

In British military parlance a "fusil" is a light musket, and theredore a military firelock. My 1759 Light Infantry Fusil was 42" bbl & .66 cal (vs. the standard 46" & .75 caliber of the time). A "carbine" is standard caliber but lightened and with much shortened barrel.

 

[Gaze]

I appreaciate all the help; it's beginning to soak in.

A fusee is different in Britian than in France. It's kind of like "corn." Corn in America is different than in corn Britian.

In West Virginia, "corn" is something else and a fusee isn't a gun at all but just a flare. No wonder people here demand from people with accents, "where you from?" We have to determine what kind of a furrin language they speak before we know what in the blazes they are talking about.

Over on the smokeless sites, they talk about easy stuff, like what magnum means in centerfires, rimfires, and shotguns. I prefer it here. :grey:

 

[rschissler]

I always thought a "fowler" or "fowling piece" was primarily for shooting birds or fowl. Is that true, and if so why?

 

[bpollock_sr]

Magnum is new speak for " Too much gun "
---------------------------------------
" and those were great times "

 

[Puffer]

I always thought a "fowler" or "fowling piece" was primarily for shooting birds or fowl. Is that true, and if so why?

Ithink that you are correct,
But then again maybe they were refering to then always "fouling"up when you need them But that would mean ALL of our "smokepoles would be "fowlers.
:huh: (hey, I spell "foneticaly"& if you have ever tried to read our ancestor's writings, so did they) :applause:

Puffer

 

[Gaze]

I always thought a "fowler" or "fowling piece" was primarily for shooting birds or fowl. Is that true, and if so why?

Ithink that you are correct,
But then again maybe they were refering to then always "fouling"up when you need them But that would mean ALL of our "smokepoles would be "fowlers.
:huh: (hey, I spell "foneticaly"& if you have ever tried to read our ancestor's writings, so did they) :applause:

Puffer

A "fowler" sounds like a duck shooter. But I've seen several posters' say that Americans preferred to snare etc fowl because it is cheap and easy. Also that no one had a good way of making shot. Maybe rich British hunted fowl with them, but :thumbsup:Americans used them for hunting deer, Indians, and British :redthumb:.

 

[Stumpkiller]

The English called them "fowlers" 'cause that's all there was left to shoot on their little barren island. The deer were all wiped out before flintlocks were invented.

In America we called them "buck and ball" guns, and they were loaded with a single large ball and three or six smaller ones. Stop anything that moved within 50 yards.

It wasn't until the percussion era that Americans started taking birds on the wing for sport. Shot was not easy to make or common on the frontier. You either had to buy drop shot or slive sheet lead into little cubes.

History according to Stumpy. ::

 

[Wes/Tex]

Might as well toss in my 2-cents worth. As mentioned above, although "fusil" was originally a French term, in the language of the British military it ahad come to mean a gun with bore size smaller than the standard 'musket' bore size, in this case .75" to .77". Most surviving fusils are probably officer's guns and usually run in the range of .65" to .72". Some are the shorter length of like those adopted by the cavalry & artillery at 37" barrels and others are more like the Light Infantry Fusils with a 42" barrel like the Short Land Pattern bess musket. Some are rather plain like the Besses while others had ornate furniture in gild or silver and one specimen had a take-down stock.

"Fowling" pieces were obviously named for their use and the term had been used, along with "birding piece", for at least a century before. Shot for fowlers wasn't available perfectly round from being dropped from shot towers until after the towers were invented in l769 by Williams Watts. Before that, "Rupert" shot was made by pouring arsenic fluxed lead into a heavy rimmed brass collander that was filled with live coals and the liquid lead ran down through the coals and dropped through the small holes and into the water filled pan several inches below. This type shot was slightly ovoid in shape and usually had a dimpled spot which would have been the top of the shot as it hit the water. The alternate was "tumbled" shot which was laboriously made by cutting sheets of thin lead into cubes and tumbling them in a drum, exactly the way stones are now polished or cartridge cases are cleaned in electrically powdered tumblers. Obviously, the drums were peasant-powered in those days! ::

 

[robinghewitt]

The English called them "fowlers" 'cause that's all there was left to shoot on their little barren island. The deer were all wiped out before flintlocks were invented.

Glad you old us, we can now save a small fortune by not replacing all those deer warning signs cluttering up our roads :thumbsup:

 

[Gaze]

:thanks:

Squire Robin: Glad you old us, we can now save a small fortune by not replacing all those deer warning signs cluttering up our roads :thumbsup:

RE: Deer in England: Watch out for deer signs don

 

[tg]

I like buck and ball in a .62, only good for up close though, and these loads might be better suited for a heavy barreled smoothrifle rather than a thinner barreled fowler.

 

[Stumpkiller]

. . . we can now save a small fortune by not replacing all those deer warning signs cluttering up our roads.

Yeah, but we know the English never throw anything away. Those were probably from the 11th century and have been hanging around ever since.

You guys need to freshen up. :haha:

 

[Mike Brooks]

The English called them "fowlers" 'cause that's all there was left to shoot on their little barren island. The deer were all wiped out before flintlocks were invented.

In America we called them "buck and ball" guns, and they were loaded with a single large ball and three or six smaller ones. Stop anything that moved within 50 yards.

It wasn't until the percussion era that Americans started taking birds on the wing for sport. Shot was not easy to make or common on the frontier. You either had to buy drop shot or slive sheet lead into little cubes.

History according to Stumpy. ::

I'll bet all those 17th and 18th century duck hunters would be surprised to hear that they weren't shooting birds untill 200 years later.
:winking:
Shot was no harder to come by than round ball. It may not have been perfectly round like our shot is today, but it was still effective enough to get the job done.
Get Grinslade's new book on fowlers....there was a whole lota wing shootin goin on..... :thumbsup:

 

[Stumpkiller]

I'll bet all those 17th and 18th century duck hunters would be surprised to hear that they weren't shooting birds untill 200 years later.

That whole post was pretty tongue-in-cheek. :redface:

I didn't say no-one killed birds. I've seen some dandy fowlers that held about a pound of shot and would kill 100 ducks in a pop. Guns that would startle Squire Robin!

Bet you a $1 they weren't wing shooting them one at a time unless they were the idle rich (who were busy buying fancy rifles :haha. Wing shooting is a sport, as opposed to grocery killing or market hunting. OK, so I don't doubt the gentry took to the flyways to take the occasional bird on the wing. Probably by waiting for a big enough squadron to pass by that some would fly into the shot. :haha: I've always wondered if choke is a result in the change of the "norms" of sportsmanship as much as a welcome technological innovation. With a cylinder bore you have a better chance of keeping more of the flock on the water when you shoot. A couple paintings (and several engravings) I have seen show a duck hunter stalking, belly on the bank, and, I would guess, the technique was to get as close as possible and shoot as they "made" you. Not because waiting for them to rise was sporting, but because that was the signal that you were as close as likely you'd get.

Pheasants weren't introduced until post flint, and grouse are easier to snare or shoot off limbs & under trees.

I used to be of the "smoothbore: the do it all gun" crowd until I actually got out and tried grouse hunting with my 42" barrel flintlock musket. Granted, a fowler is lighter and "faster", but I've hefted club-butt and Hudson's Bay fowlers that would take an act of God to connect on a jinking wood-duck or dove. Maybe 1:10 for grouse. Woodcock? HA! You've got a better chance of being struck by lightning as a shark bites you in the pocket where your winning lottery ticket is kept. A lighter NW Trade Gun would increase your chances immensely

I can make a round ball from any lead I come across as long as I have a mould. Shot is a trick. You'd NEED an 8 bore to connect at 30 yards on a goose with any shot made at the cabin. It would either be square, tear-shaped or big.

 

[Bearbait2]

Mr. Stumpkiller,
Then for a Grouse gun and other close range small game (no choke) would you recommend a lighter weight Trade Rifle rather than a Fowler. Or is there another you might recommend based on your experience/preference?
I seem to be leaning towards the flintlock .62cal/20ga for greatest versatility (ability to molest a Moose or Grizz if the opportunity arises, in addition to small game) under my circumstances.
Best Wishes