American Pioneer Powder vs 777 vs BlackMag'3

[Tahquamenon]

Black Mag'3 has been very easy to ignite in my experience using RWS Dynamit Nobel 1075 No.11 caps. BM'3 will not need a magnum cap or primer for ignition.

 

:hmm:Just was wondering how much shooting everyone has done with APP. Also what type of shooting. I have been usinig APP only in cap guns, have used in flint and yes did not shoot well at all, still use only BP. As to having moisture,hunted in rain last year and left charge in for up to a week, wet weather week. When ready to go out each day, used nipple pick. and then capped. When after week gun shoot fine, no missed fire. Also have not noted as many address, fouling or excess dirty barrlels. One note, I use only the 3F in all cap guns, 50 cal.with patch, not lub and round ball, 60 to 80 grains. Have had no problems with loading, generally shoot 40 to 60 rounds when on range. I also have not had to run any dry patch between shoots. Cleaning is always done, as with BP, boiling/soap water followed by clean/boiling water. Also use APP in shooting my Sharps 45/70,and in my double 20 ga, for all shooting.Yes I must say that BP is still the King of Powders, it just has that smell and smoke! App is just easy to clean up after shooting. :m2c:

 

[Catof9tails]

I've heard through the grapevine that Pyrodex is harder to ignite than regular BP. And I have had only one misfire due to my fault of not checking the nipple to see if it was clear. I have only used Remmington #11 regular percussion caps and have not had what I call a problem with ignition or hangfires. As I've heard from other folks outside of this forum that APP and BM3 are harder to ignite than Pyrodex. It was just my idea of using a hotter cap to fill the void for harder ignition. Not sure it will work, but I'll try it and see what happens.

Cat9

 

[rrgr40]

Pyrodex is good stuff. It is a bit harder to ignite than black powder but this usually shows up on the first shot when there is still some residual oil or something in the fire channel. / For most positive first shot ignition with single loaders, I sometimes remove the nipple and dribble a few grains of pyrodex into the snail. AFter that, duds and hang-fires are rare./

I have been using BP for quite some time now. I always fire a lite load and reload before I leave the house. Normally when I am out all day I will unload and reload about midday. Kinda cures the itchy trigger finger. But, all that being said, I do not have a misfire or hangfire problem using BP. A little preparation goes a long way in my book.

 

[Runner]

Pyrodex is considerably harder to ignite than real black is. I used it for about 20 years because I bought into the hype. It was new and promised great things. It was supposedly safer to store at home, less open to static discharge, cleaner and easier to clean up after, less corrosive, and lighter by volume so you got more shots out of a pound. By the time I found out that most of that is BS, I had been using it for a long time and had learned to deal with it. All of the holes in my hunting nipples have been drilled out a little bigger. I automatically put a couple of grains of powder under the nipple just in case. I store the guns upside down with the ramrod in the barrel holding a dry paper towel patch to absorb all the oil out of the powder channel. Most of the load development I did over the years was with Pyrodex P and the lubes it likes. Real black is a little different and likes different lubes than P does. Pyrodex is not cleaner to shoot. In fact, it is dirtier than all but the dirtiest of black powder. It is not easier to clean up. In fact, it is harder to clean a barrel that has been shooting Pyrodex than one that has been shooting black. It is not less corrosive. In fact, it introduces some residues to the barrel that are worse than sulpher from real black. It is harder to keep a pyrodex barrel from rusting than one that has been shooting real black. It may actually be safer to store and does provide more shots per pound. When I got my first flintlock, I was shooting 3f 777 in my sidelocks. I had abandoned Pyrodex already. The flinter requires real black, so I just went to black in everything. The reality of using black after years of Pyrodex is hard to explain if you have not done it. I have a can of RS here that will likely never be used cause I am not going back.

Lots of folks do not have access to real black anymore because of laws, liability insurance, shipping fees, and profit margins. I talked to the Graf's in St. Charles today to see if they carried Swiss in the store. No, you have to order that. I asked about the Graf's and Son's label powder. He said he has some left, but that he is not re-ordering since it is a less known brand and does not sell well enough. He is keeping Goex only. For those not as fortunate as we are here in MO, the two choices seem to be Pyrodex and 777 for most folks. Hopefully BlackMag and Pinnacle will add to that list of choices. Sooner or later all of us will likely have to go to a sub because of the way things are changing. APP sounds really good but there are simply too many reports of great accuracy one season and the same jar causing wildly varying velocities and poor accuracy after it has been on the shelf for a while for me to trust it. Having said that, I have a family friend that uses nothing else in his Hawken. Of course if you are shooting an inline with a removable plug, all of the info I just typed has almost no meaning for you. Listen to the people here and the reports that come back about the subs. Do not get suckesd in by hype. Once you have the info, you still have to see how your rifle likes each one. Pyrodex P is capable of producing very very good accuracy in a lot of guns.

 

[sidelock]

:agree: Right on Ridgeroader--- real BP is so much better than the subs in every respect (except possibly in inlines) that I will shoot the real stuff forever (or at least as long as I can shoot) even if it costs $50 a can. By the way-- the best deer I ever got was in Highland Co. some 45 yrs ago. Nice country. :redthumb:

 

[Tahquamenon]

Black Mag'3 has been the easiest to ignite over all other substitutes in my experience thus far.

I find that it's not that far from traditional BP in terms of ignition.

Much closer than pyrodex, APP or 777. Not sure about Pinnacle as I've not tried that yet.

 

[sidelock]

Like you Runner I bought into the hype when Pyrodex first came out and just had to try it. No sub. is as accurate in my rifles as real BP and I can shoot all day without wiping if I load properly, and I have NEVER had a hangfire---EVER. ----Now I didn't say no DRY LOADS---(just a few) over the past 30 some years. :results: :imo: :m2c: :redthumb:

 

34 years of shoot'n real BP in my muzzleloaders, and nary a problem!! (I doubt my rifleguns will ever see "faux" powder, as long as I live!!) :thumbsup: :redthumb:

YMHS
rollingb

 

[Tahquamenon]

34 years of shoot'n real BP in my muzzleloaders, and nary a problem!! (I doubt my rifleguns will ever see "faux" powder, as long as I live!!) :thumbsup: :redthumb:

YMHS
rollingb

I like BP as well.

Not all folks have access to or even prefer shooting BP.

In fact other than remote ordering via phone, mail or internet it's getting more difficult each year to find shops that carry/stock traditional black powder. Which relegates folks to buy BP in bulk or group with others to buy in bulk at increased costs up front versus picking up a jug of whatever at XYZ-Mart.

You either have enough BP to last the rest of your life, think that traditional BP will be forever available or both?

Or, are you going to just hang up the smokepoles if BP becomes obsolete and otherwise difficult to obtain or overly expensive to obtian?

 

34 years of shoot'n real BP in my muzzleloaders, and nary a problem!! (I doubt my rifleguns will ever see "faux" powder, as long as I live!!) :thumbsup: :redthumb:

YMHS
rollingb

I like BP as well.

Not all folks have access to or even prefer shooting BP.

In fact other than remote ordering via phone, mail or internet it's getting more difficult each year to find shops that carry/stock traditional black powder. Which relegates folks to buy BP in bulk or group with others to buy in bulk at increased costs up front versus picking up a jug of whatever at XYZ-Mart.

You either have enough BP to last the rest of your life, think that traditional BP will be forever available or both?

Or, are you going to just hang up the smokepoles if BP becomes obsolete and otherwise difficult to obtain or overly expensive to obtian?

How long do you think real blackpowder will remain available to consumers, if everone switchs to the imitations?????

I'm do'n my best as a blackpowder consumer, to assure GOEX stays in business!! (ARE YOU??) :hmm:

YMHS
rollingb

 

[mec]

I've tried that gambit. Bough Ruger Bisley's on the single six frame. Wrote them up for a mass circulation magazine. They dropped them anyway. Come to think of it, I've done the same thing with several other guns that have been discontinued shortly thereafter. Good thing I'm not writing for any magazines anymore.

 

I've tried that gambit. Bough Ruger Bisley's on the single six frame. Wrote them up for a mass circulation magazine. They dropped them anyway. Come to think of it, I've done the same thing with several other guns that have been discontinued shortly thereafter. Good thing I'm not writing for any magazines anymore.

I'm not sure how thet "relates" to real blackpowder, but,.... CVA has dropped ther sidelock rifles in favor of increased sales of modern inlines (not a "good sign" IMHO)!!

YMHS
rollingb

 

[BS]

I'm not sure how thet "relates" to real blackpowder, but,.... CVA has dropped ther sidelock rifles in favor of increased sales of modern inlines (not a "good sign" IMHO)!!

Hopefully it is just a phase like coumpound bows are going thru.....once they get an inline and learn how much fun shooting it can be, they might think about a more trad model.

Heck, I even think about building a fullstock, flintlock hawken. ::

 

[Gleason.Chapman]

BS, That is true for me. I have hunted all my life but only with rifle and compound bow. I bought an in-line 6 years ago, because the owner of the store where I checked my deer sold ML and said they were as accurate as rifles at 100 yards and he had shot a doe 220 yards. I didn't initially believe him, but check around with some people and sure enought what he said was true. I bought an inline and used it only in 2 week ML season. Last year I tried FlintLock in Pa. I would have NEVER done that 10 years ago, too complex, too much messing around, too complex. That is what I thought. Now I prefer to hunt with the inlines over a center fire rifle, they are just as accurate and actually have better killing power because of the bigger bullet. FlintLock, I am just getting into it, and it is very challenging, but not unlike a compound which I mastered and get a couple of deer every year with for the last 20. So many people get into "smokepoling" as you guys call it by inlines first then side locks or flint locks, they all have their quirks, but once you know them you accept them and work with them to be your weapon of choice.
Chap Gleason, Loudoun Co Va

 

Last year I tried FlintLock in Pa. I would have NEVER done that 10 years ago, too complex, too much messing around, too complex. That is what I thought.

:crackup: :crackup: Yore joke'n,..... right????? :crackup: :crackup:

What could be simpler then a flintlock rifle, real black powder, and roundballs???????????????????? :crackup: :crackup: :crackup:

I see more discussions on these forums about XYZ bullets are better'n ZYX bullets, and complaints about ignition "problems" due to various fake powders,..... along with a "confuse'n assortment" of discs vs 209-4 vs 209 vs percussion caps vs musket caps,.......... and you think "flintlocks are too complex"???? :crackup: :crackup:

Flintlocks are to simple longbows,..... what modern inlines are to, compound bows with all ther modern gadgetry!! :imo:

YMHS
rollingb

 

[Tahquamenon]

[/quote]
How long do you think real blackpowder will remain available to consumers, if everone switchs to the imitations?????
Rollingb, I can see you are getting worked up. Relax and stop trying to hijack the thread. I don't think everyone is switching to anything. We were just having a topic that is not the pro's and con's of substitute powders versus tradtional BP.

But I'll indulge you. I don't think BP is going anywhere for quite some time if ever in my lifetiime, but the local retail availability is going to dissapear and much sooner than later.

In the event that you have not been paying attention, BP is in decline as far as retail availability. This is likely part due to the decline of BP shooting folks picking up just a pound here and there. Many BP shooters buy in bulk (I do), not from retail. Gun shops will likely have a limited supply but that is also dwindling.

Also, the storage regulations for BP make it less attractive for retailers. And if you have still not been paying attention, the fastest growing market in ML is not shooting BP which is also why traditional BP is dissapearing from retail. It's not selling like other propellants are in the retail market.

I'm do'n my best as a blackpowder consumer, to assure GOEX stays in business!! (ARE YOU??) :hmm:
YMHS
rollingb [/quote]

Well I'm happy for you keeping Goex in business and all and I'm sure they are as well. My preference is Swiss BP and I've bought my 10 pounds for 2005, but that is not what the thread topic is about. If you want to start the "I love Goex thread" please do so.
Stay on topic please.

 

[Twisted_1in66]

How long do you think real blackpowder will remain available to consumers, if everone switchs to the imitations?????

I'm do'n my best as a blackpowder consumer, to assure GOEX stays in business!! (ARE YOU??) :hmm:

YMHS
rollingb

YES!

 

"Well I'm happy for you keeping Goex in business and all and I'm sure they are as well. My preference is Swiss BP and I've bought my 10 pounds for 2005,"

Whatever happens to the availability of Goex, will also effect Swiss black powder!!

What will you then shoot in yore flintlock should regulations prevent us from git'n real black powder of any kind,.... American Pioneer Powder???? ::

Please tell me how well this stuff works in flintlocks!!

YMHS
rollingb

 

:thumbsup: :redthumb: :applause: ::

YMHS
rollingb