american pioneer powder??

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wisc12

Pilgrim
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Hi Everyone
I'm new to this forum and can't find the information I'm looking for. I'm sure it is on here somewhere. I have been shooting pyrodex. I'm interested in the American Pioneer Powder. The ease of clean up is appealing. However, my google search brings up mixed results on the product. What has been your experience with this product?
Thank you,
 
APP sucks! Looks like gravel, absorbs moisture easily and offers the lowest FPS out of all the subs on the market.
 
I haven't personally used APP, but what I have "heard" about it isn't very promising. I have used Pyrodex before and switched to real Black Powder. The cleanup with BP is easier than Pyro, IMHO. Also, IMHO, the "ease of cleanup" with any of the subs is a stretch of the truth . . . Get some real BP, you won't be disappointed.
 
Someone gave me a new can they shot onwe shot out of, I tryed it in my Walker and it was like abunch of little skyrockets comeing out???? :youcrazy: :rotf: Your right it sounded really good. Haventttttttttt shot any morwe and cant tell you if I dumped it or it just got lost in the dump. Fred :hatsoff:
 
i still have some sub which goes in cap & ball revolvers until used up, then it's replaced with real black. you're gonna have to clean it regardless of the propellant, so why get all wrapped around the axle with subs when black works better and costs less?

subs? i can't understand what all the fuss is about... my :bull: detector tells me that it's another way to seperate us from our hard- earned, God- entrusted overtaxed dollars.

OK- that's the end of the tirade- shoot subs if that makes you happy.

just one guy's opinion, and it's probably worth what you paid for it.
 
Everyone has to start somewhere, so let this be the beginning of your education about HYPE. Don't believe it! What has already been said about the powder here is correct. I believe they actually are telling people you don't have to clean your guns, because most of the fools who buy this powder are also buying zip guns, so they can hunt during special MLer only seasons. These guns are so cheap, they want you to corrode them out by NOT CLEANING the guns, so you have to buy another in a year or two.

You need to use modern solvents to get the plastic and smokeless powder residues out of them. Then you also need to use soap and water to clean the barrel and action, in order to makes sure any priming compound, or percussion cap residue is also removed. The powder actually does absorb moisture faster than does Black Powder, not less!

Now, throw in the cost of the stuff- as much as $27.00 per bottle, and most do not contain 16 oz., as BP is sold, and you are paying a lot of money for a lot of TROUBLE.

Traditional arms have been using black powder for more than 500 years. All the " Bugs " have been worked out.

Long ago.

Quit trying to reinvent the wheel, Please! If you go to the links section at the top of the index page to this forum, you will find powder suppliers who will ship powder to your front door. Graf& sons will sell you as little as 5 lbs per shipment, and still discount the powder. There is a Hazardous Materials fee that is charged PER SHIPMENT, so it makes more sense to find other BP shooters, and combine your money and order to buy a case of the powder, which you then split up. It also gives you the lowest pricing- less than $13.00 per pound to your door. If you buy the powder in bulk, and pick it up yourself, you can cut even more money off the price.

These substitute powders are based on ascorbic Acid, which oxidizes easily. It also deteriorates quickly once the can or bottle is opened, and the powder loses power. Once opened, you have to use the powder up in a short time.

The only benefit to using these powders that I have found is missing out on the smell of sulphur and " rotten eggs". But, for most of us, that smell is not so bad, and is only temporary. Water quickly dissolves the sulfur and the odor leaves the barrel when you pour the water out.

There are places in Canada, and Kodiak Island, Alaska, where getting Black Powder is difficult. In England you have to have a special permit to own the stuff, and are limited in how much of it you can have at one time. Ain't government wonderful? In those places, you have to use a substitute powder, but the best of them is still Pyrodex. However, none of the substitutes is designed to be used in Flintlocks. They all have a higher flash point than does black powder, altho Pyrodex is apparently lower than the others.

The only good results I have heard about using American Pioneer Powder has been by a few CAS shooters, who are shooting the Black Powder cartridge events using the stuff. Apparently, with modern primers to ignite the powder in a closed chamber, shooting a heavy bullet, the stuff burns well enough to let them hit those huge targets, and they don't mind all the cleaning they have to do with their guns.

Buy Black Powder, instead. It will save you money and aggravation.
 
I'm one of those CAS shooters that uses it in pistol cartridge loads.


As mentioned it absorbs moisture out of the air pretty quickly, you can't leave it in your powder hopper or flask indefinately. It needs to go back into a sealed can after use.


The FFg version granule size is very large and won't flow thru a measure accurately. The FFFg version is much better and more uniform.
It has very little fouling in cartridge guns. I use it primarily because you can use standard lubes on your bullets and don't need to go to BP type lubes. The lack of fouling is also a plus in a CAS match as your guns need less attention.


I have also tried it in my single shot percussion dueling pistol. It was as accurrate as my GOEX loads and also produced very little fouling. Cleanup was as advertised, only takes a couple of wet patches. Saved some time but not much.


It is not particularly corrosive to steel. I've let my cowboy pistols go without cleaning for several days with no ill effects. However, the stuff is HELL ON BRASS. Cartridge cases are immediately thrown into a soapy water solution after shooting. My brass framed 66 and Henry gets hosed off with moosemilk before going home and then they get stripped down for a real good cleaning. Let any brass sit overnight and it'll been green and cruddy by morning.

As stated elsewhere, it is also a very mild powder. Based purely on subjective recoil compared to other powders it falls on the bottom of the power scale. Good for CAS where power isn't an issue.

It is not as cheap as BP, but like BP you can buy it in bulk and have it shipped. Its been awhile (4 years I think) but my last purchase was just over $14 a lb. Its probably gone up a bit since then (what hasn't).
 
that last post explains why my brass measurer and flask got crudded up I started using goex like it better. I used it for a while harvested deer with it. It also is very difficult to get even 3f to come out of a brass flask like made by traditions cva etc. GOex is still less money than that stuff so I stick with goex. I have heard that the Swiss powder or wano is a little cleaner but I have not tried it and I wipe the bore with torn up t shirts about every shot or every other shot. about every 10 I use solovent
 
I bought some APP when I couldnt find any real BP and while I had better luck with it than Pyrodex it still wasnt very good.
 
I have used it and I will say this the Jim Shockey Gold is supposed to be the tops of this brand!
If you will take it too your favorite flower garden dig along side the roots pour in liberally and I do mean liberally, mix troughly and water, it makes a darn good fertilizer.
It's crap and doesn't work good in a traditonal muzzleloader, the worst fouling I have ever seen. Three consectutive shots and then patching casued so much fouling it was backing through the drum and out the nipple!
Go with real black! I use GEOX 2ffg, with absolutely no complaints. Try a lube of Hoppes Black Powder lube and solvent and it makes a great combo in my opinion.
You aksed this is my opinion and I will stick with it to the end.
The imitations in powder are all desdigned basically for the those inferenal inlines and not traditional. Afterall Jim Shockey who braggs about his own personal line of the American Pioneer Powder uses it in a TC centerfrire. Any of the subs do not preform well in a Tradional Muzzleloader and after all thats why were here and not on another site, because we want to find the optimum performance for our Tradional Rifles.

Now if that's all you can't get real black you will have to make some concessions. Like cleaning more often and lube will need to be something that works well with a sub. What that is you will have to ask someone else as try as I might I could never come up with a lube that worked well with a sub!
Oh, and by the way you can order real black and have it delivered to your door. Of course you will have to pay a Hazmat fee but, the larger the order the less the fee cost. Go together with a few friends a buy a case! :stir: :2
 
When I got my first BP rifle I had a hard time finding true Black powder. I bought some of the APP. The first time I shot the gun it went off and did fine for the first shot out of a flinter. The second shot I loaded the same way as the first. That thing would not fire. The powder in the pan would just fizzle and smoke and nothing would happen. My buddy had some goex FFg. I put that in the pan and viola. I haven't looked back since. Black Powder all the way. Oh yeah the clean up isn't any harder with black powder and I've heard that the App is just as corrosive as BP if not more. Just my humble opinion.
 
I bought a can of american whozis a couple of months ago. fired a couple of rounds from a caplock rifle and it worked fine. cleanup was almost as easy as advertised. then i took a friend's grandson shooting and after two or three shots I started getting misfires. pulled out a can of goex and the misfires ended. years ago I tried black mag 3 or somesuch in my flinter, since the company said it would work okay. It didn't work worth a darn.
did clean up very easily, however. frankly the extra effort of cleanup after shooting real black powder is not so bad compared with the frustration of misfires. graybeard
 
I tried the APP once luckily from a friends batch because he wanted my opinion, lets just put it this way, my wife noticed the difference in report, recoil & bullet impact when she shot my Pietta 1858 NMA & I didn't like it one bit.

From that moment on he was sold that it was not the greatest Sub for the money.

I preferr real Black Powder but when supplies begin to get a little low & it gets hard to come by I'll stick with Pyrodex, it's the closest of all the subs to the real thing in performance with the same loading technique, & almost the same price as the real stuff.
 
Well, it seems like most everyone has had a similar experience.
I'll add my 2 cents too...
A buddyof mine gave me a jug of this stuff and said give it a try. I wondered why he was just giving it to me.
I soon found out. I took my .50 percussion out and it took 4 caps to get it to fire. I was on the verge of putting some goex under the nipple to get it to burn.
I like the idea of fertilizing the flowers with it. I was going to get a gallon of gas and mix with it so I could destroy it to prevent anyone else having the same experience as me. I thought the gas would get it to burn.
It was the first time I ever tried any "replacement" powder and I got two in one, first and last.
Mike
 

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