Guest
American Pioneer Powder. I have seen this stuff advertised on the Outdoor Channel quite a bit. Has anyone used this stuff? Is it as clean-burning as they claim it is? Just curious...
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Guest
I apoligize if my post seems elementary. I am "new" to the sport and have yet to purchase a gun. I am trying to research as much as I can so I don't end up with something I don't like. I would like to be informed as possibe before I spend $$$$ on a gun and accessories. All help will be appericiated.
I have never used it and don't know anyone who has, but for some strange reason I have their website on a piece of paper by my computer??? www.americanpioneerpowder.com
Maybe this will answer some questions. I always recommend Goex Black Powder by the way... :thumbsup:
Maybe this will answer some questions. I always recommend Goex Black Powder by the way... :thumbsup:
After reading thier literature, here are a few of my thoughts.
1. It appears to be one of the new sulphurless powders which is designed for Modern "In-Line" style Muzzleloaders and cartridge guns.
2. As they didn't address the question of flintlocks, I must assume their powder has a high ignition temperature requirement that won't work in a flintlock without using some real black powder inside the bore as a "starter".
3. The "sticks" are sometimes used by the Modern Muzzleloaders but I feel certain they will not work reliably in precussion guns which have side locks. If you own a sidelock, precussion gun the granulated powder may work.
4. The endorsement by Jim Shockly is to be expected. First off, he uses Modern Muzzleloaders only. Second, You can bet the American Pioneer Powder picked up the $15,000-$30,000 tab for his trip to Africa. He isn't dumb enough to bad mouth their product after that.
5. It makes much ado about how easy it is to clean. I rather doubt it is any easier than some of the other "new" black powder substitutes. Actually, the old Black Powder isn't hard to clean.
6. It touts it's power as being the equivalent of black powder by volume. I have seen several of these new powders come and go over the last 20 years because they didn't live up to their hype.
Before I went out and bought some of this, I would like to see some real world comparitive testing by someone without a tie to the company. This testing would include velocity and standard deviation of the most common loads in .45, .50 and .54 caliber guns.
7. They recommend that the user should not lubricate the bullet or patch as it will cause the unburned powder which was contaminated by the lube/spit to foul the bore. Shooting a Roundball with a dry patch is a good way to have the patch burn thru. Aside from being a fire hazard, accuracy goes to Hell if the patch burns thru.
8. Nothing was said about the co$t. Some of these new powders are more expensive than smokeless powder, and almost all muzzleloaders use more powder per shot than all but the stoutest Magnum cartridge guns.
For a few lucky ones, or those willing to buy very large amounts, the price of GOEX black powder is somewhere between $8-$12 per pound. Pyrodex in my area is going for around $16 per pound and most of these new non-fouling powders are over $20 per pound.
On a cost basis, Black Powder is hard (impossible?) to beat.
1. It appears to be one of the new sulphurless powders which is designed for Modern "In-Line" style Muzzleloaders and cartridge guns.
2. As they didn't address the question of flintlocks, I must assume their powder has a high ignition temperature requirement that won't work in a flintlock without using some real black powder inside the bore as a "starter".
3. The "sticks" are sometimes used by the Modern Muzzleloaders but I feel certain they will not work reliably in precussion guns which have side locks. If you own a sidelock, precussion gun the granulated powder may work.
4. The endorsement by Jim Shockly is to be expected. First off, he uses Modern Muzzleloaders only. Second, You can bet the American Pioneer Powder picked up the $15,000-$30,000 tab for his trip to Africa. He isn't dumb enough to bad mouth their product after that.
5. It makes much ado about how easy it is to clean. I rather doubt it is any easier than some of the other "new" black powder substitutes. Actually, the old Black Powder isn't hard to clean.
6. It touts it's power as being the equivalent of black powder by volume. I have seen several of these new powders come and go over the last 20 years because they didn't live up to their hype.
Before I went out and bought some of this, I would like to see some real world comparitive testing by someone without a tie to the company. This testing would include velocity and standard deviation of the most common loads in .45, .50 and .54 caliber guns.
7. They recommend that the user should not lubricate the bullet or patch as it will cause the unburned powder which was contaminated by the lube/spit to foul the bore. Shooting a Roundball with a dry patch is a good way to have the patch burn thru. Aside from being a fire hazard, accuracy goes to Hell if the patch burns thru.
8. Nothing was said about the co$t. Some of these new powders are more expensive than smokeless powder, and almost all muzzleloaders use more powder per shot than all but the stoutest Magnum cartridge guns.
For a few lucky ones, or those willing to buy very large amounts, the price of GOEX black powder is somewhere between $8-$12 per pound. Pyrodex in my area is going for around $16 per pound and most of these new non-fouling powders are over $20 per pound.
On a cost basis, Black Powder is hard (impossible?) to beat.
I bought a lb. of it ($16)in 2F from a tiny local gun shop that had to order it special. It has to be available for less elsewhere.
"BlackPowder Guns and Hunting", Fall '04, had an article on selecting powders. Pioneer was one of those selected for testing. That article is what piqued my curiosity. Here's why:
Results published in the above article indicated that it had the lowest velocity spread of the 'substitutes'- nearly the same as Goex, closest velocity duplication of Goex 2F, smallest groups, easiest cleaning.
This past Sunday I shot 5 3-shot groups with it. 90 gr. by volume 2F Pioneer, 275 gr. Buffalo Bullet Maxi-Ballette with their lube (beeswax??) removed and BoreButter lube used in its place, #11 Rem. cap, 26" 1:48 twist barrel. (CVA .50 Bobcat) One fouling shot before 1st on paper. Results?
Accuracy was the same as Goex 2F. , which leads me to believe that the MV was the same between the two powders.
Fouling was nearly non-existant. NO patches were needed between these shots or groups - that's 16 consecutive shots with no swabbing. No misfires. At cleanup, as I'm pumping hot water and Murphy's Oil Soap up and down the barrell into a tub of water, there was NO discoloration of the water! With Goex, it's normally BLACK, and needs to be changed. I took the lock off, swished it in the water, dried it with a hairdryer, and gave it a light shot of RemOil. With Goex, I do that AND go through 12-15 Q-Tips on the lock. There was no visable fouling on the nipple when it was removed, or the clean out screw or inside the bolster after flushing the barrel. I needed a total of four patches on that cleanup.
:results:
Conclusion - As far as can be told from this limited test, Pioneer is ballistically equivalent by volume to Goex. It is hundreds of times cleaner. I have no proof whether it would be more or less corrosive than BP, but have to believe that it would be less so, as there's no sulfer to make sulfuric acid.
:imo:
I'm going to shoot it until I see some reason not to. At the range, my goal is to see how to improve my skill with the tool - the gun, not the ramrod. If I can get many more shots in by using a substitute, I'll do it. Don't get me wrong. I like Goex, but I'm not blind to how its filthyness limits my shooting; I like that Triple 7 is much cleaner, but am not blind to how it's hotter velocity makes it difficult to duplicate a load in BP. AT THIS POINT, I'll use it.
"BlackPowder Guns and Hunting", Fall '04, had an article on selecting powders. Pioneer was one of those selected for testing. That article is what piqued my curiosity. Here's why:
Results published in the above article indicated that it had the lowest velocity spread of the 'substitutes'- nearly the same as Goex, closest velocity duplication of Goex 2F, smallest groups, easiest cleaning.
This past Sunday I shot 5 3-shot groups with it. 90 gr. by volume 2F Pioneer, 275 gr. Buffalo Bullet Maxi-Ballette with their lube (beeswax??) removed and BoreButter lube used in its place, #11 Rem. cap, 26" 1:48 twist barrel. (CVA .50 Bobcat) One fouling shot before 1st on paper. Results?
Accuracy was the same as Goex 2F. , which leads me to believe that the MV was the same between the two powders.
Fouling was nearly non-existant. NO patches were needed between these shots or groups - that's 16 consecutive shots with no swabbing. No misfires. At cleanup, as I'm pumping hot water and Murphy's Oil Soap up and down the barrell into a tub of water, there was NO discoloration of the water! With Goex, it's normally BLACK, and needs to be changed. I took the lock off, swished it in the water, dried it with a hairdryer, and gave it a light shot of RemOil. With Goex, I do that AND go through 12-15 Q-Tips on the lock. There was no visable fouling on the nipple when it was removed, or the clean out screw or inside the bolster after flushing the barrel. I needed a total of four patches on that cleanup.
:results:
Conclusion - As far as can be told from this limited test, Pioneer is ballistically equivalent by volume to Goex. It is hundreds of times cleaner. I have no proof whether it would be more or less corrosive than BP, but have to believe that it would be less so, as there's no sulfer to make sulfuric acid.
:imo:
I'm going to shoot it until I see some reason not to. At the range, my goal is to see how to improve my skill with the tool - the gun, not the ramrod. If I can get many more shots in by using a substitute, I'll do it. Don't get me wrong. I like Goex, but I'm not blind to how its filthyness limits my shooting; I like that Triple 7 is much cleaner, but am not blind to how it's hotter velocity makes it difficult to duplicate a load in BP. AT THIS POINT, I'll use it.
I shot it when it used to be called Clean Shot, and still do. I still have some. It shoots fine and clean up is great. I shoot the loose form out of sidelocks and inlines, but it does not work well in flintlocks (at least not mine).
When I was shooting patched roundball out of the Hawkins, I lubed the patches and shot 25 rounds with out a single swab of the barrel. Accuracy was excellent.
I have heard that their powder sticks have some problems because chunks of the stick break off. This would effect the charge size.
Also if you get some, get the 3f size. The FFg is more like trying to pour small gravel out of the container. In fact the horn I put the stuff in could not pour the stuff back out through the weight tube, without taking the top off the container and pouring it straight out of the larger opening, the grain size was that big.
This is a sugar based propellant instead of sulfer. There is still plenty of smoke but no stink. It cleans up like a dream. Some water and your about done. The thing I have heard to be careful of with this powder is WATER. I have read a couple of posts that hunting or shooting in wet conditons cause some real problems. I would suggest if you hunt in a wet or humid climate, to be sure and give this a test drive when it is raining or snowing...
Other then that the accuracy was great and the powder very similar to Pyrodex in strength.
When I was shooting patched roundball out of the Hawkins, I lubed the patches and shot 25 rounds with out a single swab of the barrel. Accuracy was excellent.
I have heard that their powder sticks have some problems because chunks of the stick break off. This would effect the charge size.
Also if you get some, get the 3f size. The FFg is more like trying to pour small gravel out of the container. In fact the horn I put the stuff in could not pour the stuff back out through the weight tube, without taking the top off the container and pouring it straight out of the larger opening, the grain size was that big.
This is a sugar based propellant instead of sulfer. There is still plenty of smoke but no stink. It cleans up like a dream. Some water and your about done. The thing I have heard to be careful of with this powder is WATER. I have read a couple of posts that hunting or shooting in wet conditons cause some real problems. I would suggest if you hunt in a wet or humid climate, to be sure and give this a test drive when it is raining or snowing...
Other then that the accuracy was great and the powder very similar to Pyrodex in strength.
I was only curious, the rumor I heard about the fizzle / bang was with flintlocks. The cap rifle shoot the spark right into the powder and too much fire is lost with the flash in the pan of a flinter. I also tried Goex Clear Shot in my flintlock and it was terribly slow. You could pull the trigger, lay the rifle down, lube your next patch and measure out your next load, come back and pick up your rifle in time to shoot it. :crackup: Not really that bad but close. :results:
Guest
I had an opportunity to stop by the local gun shop today....so I had to stop. The owner of the place swears by APP(FFg) and said you would not pay him to use anything else. He said he has not used the "sticks" but has had several customers that were not very happy with thier performance. He claims he hunted BP for a long time and APP is the best he has seen. He also mentioned that APP is the exact same company as Clean Shot as CAYUGAD had mentioned B4. He said that the Pyrodex people(Hodgskns?) sued Clean Shot for patent infringement on the use of the shape of the "pellets". Clean Shot then shut the doors on the plant overnight and opened back up as APP. He showed me some of the "sticks" and they are square!! :huh: I don't see how putting a square "stick" in a round hole could be a good thing, but then again this stuff is still new to me... :yakyak:
I did inform him of the friendly fourm I had found and encouraged him to check it out....by the way...do current members get commission for recruitment?? :crackup:
I did inform him of the friendly fourm I had found and encouraged him to check it out....by the way...do current members get commission for recruitment?? :crackup:
I don't know about a commission but I'll take it. 
I imagine the square stick would give the increased surface
area to promote the load burning uniformly. I.e. it would accomplish the same thing as having a hole in a round pellet. Actually, since it opens up more surface area, a square stick would give more area for oxidation (burning) than the hole in a pellet.
Be aware that I'm just guessing at this. The only experience I have is with the 2F powder. - - I'm ordering some 3F powder.
I imagine the square stick would give the increased surface
area to promote the load burning uniformly. I.e. it would accomplish the same thing as having a hole in a round pellet. Actually, since it opens up more surface area, a square stick would give more area for oxidation (burning) than the hole in a pellet.
Be aware that I'm just guessing at this. The only experience I have is with the 2F powder. - - I'm ordering some 3F powder.
APP is the old Clean Shot under yet another name. Prior to Clean Shot it was Black Canyon Powder. Same owner, same factory. Different names.
APP is ascorbic acid based. A mixture of potassium nitrate and ascorbic acid.
There were two versions of Clean Shot. The first version being brown in color since all of the ascorbic acid used in it had been heat degraded. Then there was the so-called "Second Generation" Clean Shot that was grey in color. This was a mixture of raw ascorbic acid with some heat degraded ascorbic acid. The so-called grains were dusted with powdered charcoal to give them a grey coloration.
Shelf-life of the Second Generation version was better than that seen in the first version.
Ballistic strength behind patched balls left much to be desired considering the price of $20 in a gunshop.
Shooting a percussion ignition .50 cal. Lyman Trade Rifle with .490 Speer balls and .018" #40 cotton drill patching.
Adjustable measure set at 80.
Clean Shot - Second Generation
50 = 873 fps ave.
60 = 920 fps ave.
70 = 960 fps ave.
80 = 1002 fps ave.
90 = 1048 fps ave.
Compared to:
1519 fps ave., Goex Cowboy, 04AP12B
1511 fps ave., Goex 2Fg, 03AU18B
1592 fps ave., Goex 3Fg, 03MY01B
1507 fps ave., 2Fg Schuetzen, WP-04A0002
1659 fps ave., 3Fg Schuetzen, WP-04A0003
1860 Fps ave., Swiss 3Fg, plastic bottles
1792 fps ave., Triple Seven 2F
1646 fps ave., Pyrodex P
1682 fps ave., Black Mag 3
You will soon hear that Goex will be selling a black powder sub under the "Pinnacle" label. This will be APP sold under the Goex name through Goex's distribution system.
APP is ascorbic acid based. A mixture of potassium nitrate and ascorbic acid.
There were two versions of Clean Shot. The first version being brown in color since all of the ascorbic acid used in it had been heat degraded. Then there was the so-called "Second Generation" Clean Shot that was grey in color. This was a mixture of raw ascorbic acid with some heat degraded ascorbic acid. The so-called grains were dusted with powdered charcoal to give them a grey coloration.
Shelf-life of the Second Generation version was better than that seen in the first version.
Ballistic strength behind patched balls left much to be desired considering the price of $20 in a gunshop.
Shooting a percussion ignition .50 cal. Lyman Trade Rifle with .490 Speer balls and .018" #40 cotton drill patching.
Adjustable measure set at 80.
Clean Shot - Second Generation
50 = 873 fps ave.
60 = 920 fps ave.
70 = 960 fps ave.
80 = 1002 fps ave.
90 = 1048 fps ave.
Compared to:
1519 fps ave., Goex Cowboy, 04AP12B
1511 fps ave., Goex 2Fg, 03AU18B
1592 fps ave., Goex 3Fg, 03MY01B
1507 fps ave., 2Fg Schuetzen, WP-04A0002
1659 fps ave., 3Fg Schuetzen, WP-04A0003
1860 Fps ave., Swiss 3Fg, plastic bottles
1792 fps ave., Triple Seven 2F
1646 fps ave., Pyrodex P
1682 fps ave., Black Mag 3
You will soon hear that Goex will be selling a black powder sub under the "Pinnacle" label. This will be APP sold under the Goex name through Goex's distribution system.
montanadan
40 Cal.
- Joined
- Nov 24, 2004
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WELL I HAVE BEEN USING APP(american pioneer powder)for a little more than a year now. I can say that it does work extremely well in certain applications(flintlocks and large capapcity cartridge cases, do not waste your time)percussion rifles,sinle shot pistols,CB revolvers,cartridges from 32-20 to 45 colt.(works extemely well).Not as powerful as T-7,more like pyrodex.I have found that 3fg is more powerful than 2fg Goex. If your using 2fg APP in muzzeloaders it will not measure the same, do to size granules.2fg Goex @ 90grns vs. 90grns 2fg APP will not be same, Goex will be more powerful. Sub-in 3fg APP (do to granule size)I think you find that the APP is considerably more powerful.APP weighs less than Goex,APP more shots per pond. APP in in fired form is non corrisive.You do need to clean your firearms just not right away. Water will totally dissolve App powder-saoking wet patches,will not work. Just a few ramblings-Your mileage may vary.Sincerly Montanadan
