Ammunition for a muzzleloader.

[bpd303]

You need a Sharps not a RB rifle. I doubt hundreds of critters were taken at 300 yards & RB back in the day.
Those critters were ambushed at close range.
Then shooting 120gr powder under a 400+ grain slug in a thin barrel weak stocked rifle may be asking for a disappointing outcome.
Your wasting your time. You want to shoot 300 yards BP, buy the gun that is made for it.

Back in '82 I had a Shiloh Sharps 1874 50/90 Long Range Express rifle. It was accurate to 200 yards but any further it was stretching it a little and I wouldn't have attempted to take any game at those distances.

 

[sethwyo]

You need a Sharps not a RB rifle. I doubt hundreds of critters were taken at 300 yards & RB back in the day.
Those critters were ambushed at close range.
Then shooting 120gr powder under a 400+ grain slug in a thin barrel weak stocked rifle may be asking for a disappointing outcome.
Your wasting your time. You want to shoot 300 yards BP, buy the gun that is made for it.

I am having fun.

With the straight out of hell insanity that is going on in this country today I figure that you and most of the other brothers here can appreciate that I'm having fun with my black powder muzzleloader

 

[sethwyo]

 

[sethwyo]

Back in '82 I had a Shiloh Sharps 1874 50/90 Long Range Express rifle. It was accurate to 200 yards but any further it was stretching it a little and I wouldn't have attempted to take any game at those distances.

Shiloh didn't start making Sharp's rifles until the late 1900s, the sharps you had in 1882 had to have been an original.

 

[bpd303]

Shiloh made the one I had in 1982, it was an accurate replica of the original. It has a 4 digit serial number without a prefix or suffix # 4835 & had the "Old Reliable" markings on the barrel.

https://shilohrifle.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=4113

This from their web site...
"I believe it works thusly: if there are no literal prefixes or suffixes, it is a rifle made by Wolfgang Droege and company, if it is B prefixed it is of the first 9999 rifles made by the Bryans, and if it is B suffixed it is of most recent manufacture by the Bryans. I think this is correct."
"C. Sharps and Shiloh were affiliated companies at one time. During that time rifles manufactured by Shiloh carried the "Old Reliable" trademark. When the companies went their seperate ways, appearantly C. Sharps somehow retained legal rights to the trademark. Recent C. Sharps serial numbers have a "74" prefix, I.E. "74-1234". (That is, assuming the rifle in question is an 1874.) They keep production records as does Shiloh. Since this is Shiloh's site, that's all I'll say about that other company."

 

[sethwyo]

These Maxi balls aren't working very good for me,
has anyone here ever tried them before? Used a lubed patch?

 

[Daveboone]

If wanting historically accurate for the great plains region for longer range, more power.....I am thinking still a heavy single shot....think, mountain rifle (Hawkin style) with a heavy powder load....I think I read that their original powder loads were much more than we likely shoot nowadays....120 grains and more. May be due to powder quality control. Even then, Big critters mean get closer. I am assuming open sights. Is a group that would be acceptable and reasonable for a centerfire (say, 2-3 " at 300 yard....) possible with the open sights at that distance....consistently and realistically? I understand the idea of long range shooting at the range for sharpening shooting skills, but dont let bravado let you err on those long range shots the equipment wasnt made for.

 

[ChuckJonesWagon]

These Maxi balls aren't working very good for me,
has anyone here ever tried them before? Used a lubed patch?

I'm not a fan of the Maxi. The Maxi has a flat bottom base as opposed to the Hornady Conical and the Minie. Those latter ones have a hollow base that expands when the BANG happens, and engage the rifling.

 

[Absoroka]

You mentioned 110 grains of 2F powder as a load for your 54. Using Lymans Black Powder Handbook as the source, 110 grains of 3F powder generates a velocity of 1758 fps in a 34 inch barrel, and 1824 fps in a 43 inch barrel. If you round the velocity to 1800 fps, drop at 100 yards is 8 inches, 200 yards 47 inches, and 300 yards 142 inches. Drift at 200 yards in a 10 mile per hour wind is 39 inches, at 300 yards 86 inches. At 200 yards you are looking at around 300 foot pounds of energy, at 300 yards less that 200 foot pounds. Using 2F is going to drop your velocity which will increase both drop and drift. If your rifle is sighted in for a 200 yard point of impact, you will have to guess at your hold on target to allow for 95 inches of drop and 47 inches of drift. It sounds a bit difficult, particularly if you are hunting and shooting offhand. Most shooters I have shot with are just not that accurate offhand beyond 100 yards. You might consider spending more time on improving hunting skills and the challenge of hunting up close and personal. One of the reasons many states allow a separate season for muzzleloaders is the challenge posed by traditional black powder rifles. The other kind of muzzleloaders using smokeless powder and scopes will shoot at those ranges but defeat the whole purpose IMHO.

 

[ChuckJonesWagon]

You mentioned 110 grains of 2F powder as a load for your 54. Using Lymans Black Powder Handbook as the source, 110 grains of 3F powder generates a velocity of 1758 fps in a 34 inch barrel, and 1824 fps in a 43 inch barrel. If you round the velocity to 1800 fps, drop at 100 yards is 8 inches, 200 yards 47 inches, and 300 yards 142 inches. Drift at 200 yards in a 10 mile per hour wind is 39 inches, at 300 yards 86 inches. At 200 yards you are looking at around 300 foot pounds of energy, at 300 yards less that 200 foot pounds. Using 2F is going to drop your velocity which will increase both drop and drift. If your rifle is sighted in for a 200 yard point of impact, you will have to guess at your hold on target to allow for 95 inches of drop and 47 inches of drift. It sounds a bit difficult, particularly if you are hunting and shooting offhand. Most shooters I have shot with are just not that accurate offhand beyond 100 yards. You might consider spending more time on improving hunting skills and the challenge of hunting up close and personal. One of the reasons many states allow a separate season for muzzleloaders is the challenge posed by traditional black powder rifles. The other kind of muzzleloaders using smokeless powder and scopes will shoot at those ranges but defeat the whole purpose IMHO.

I'd say those velocities are pretty accurate. I chronographed my .54 with a PRB using 110gr FF (not FFF) and got a 7 shot average of 1,709fps.

 

[longcruise]

These Maxi balls aren't working very good for me,
has anyone here ever tried them before? Used a lubed patch?

I did the patched maxi back in my "Conical Period". I went with very thin t shirt material. I noticed no accuracy advantage. There was a noticeable increase in recoil using the same powder charges. I never chronographed it but increased recoil probably indicated increased velocity.

 

[sethwyo]

wken rifle was made and sold by Jacob and Samuel Hawken. Trained by their father as rifle smiths on the East Coast, the brothers moved to St. Louis, Missouri, at the beginning of the Rocky Mountain fur trade.[2]: 1, 4  Opening a gun shop in St. Louis in 1815, they developed their Hawken Rifle, dubbed "Rocky Mountain Rifle", to serve the needs of fur trappers, traders, and explorers, a quality gunː light enough to carry all the time and that could knock down big animals at long range.[2]: 4–5 

In 1858, the shop passed to other owners who continued to operate and sell rifles bearing the Hawken name: William S. Hawken, Wi

 

[sethwyo]

They say it could knock down big animals at long range. been thinking about how long a range that would have been or could be

For some years I've wanted to purchase a buffalo hunt at one of the ranches and do it with a muzzleloader.
Don't know if I'm ever going to get to do it or not ,
an I figure all I'm really trying to do is escape reality going out and doing some target shooting and trying to I keep my mind somewhere else.

 

[sethwyo]

It's about as big and animal as you can get and about as close range as you can get.

 

[deerstalkert]

I have good luck with those maxi's using a felt wad under them. have that mold in .45, .50, .54.

 

[sethwyo]

 

[tenngun]

These Maxi balls aren't working very good for me,
has anyone here ever tried them before? Used a lubed patch?

It won’t fit with a patch, the top ring is supposed to slightly engrave at loading. You should lube the hollows.
Round ball rifeling is hard on them as it’s so deep, and they don’t stabilize in slower twist well
They were supposed to fit a shallower rifeling with a 1/48 twist. That twist was common on round ball rifles back in the day, but most rifles today are slower, 1/66 or 1/72

 

[Loyalist Dave]

300 yards with a .54 cal (or any M\L BP rifle) is optimistic that you would get anywhere near POA.

I've ran my .54 across my Crony and with a PRB over a charge of 110gr FF BP gives me an average 5 shot MV of 1,709.

My ballistic program shows with the rifle zeroed at 100yds, the drop from 100yds to 300yds is 105.8" or roughly 8.83 feet. Velocity at 300yds is about 720fps.

Agreed, and this was true back in the hey day of black powder hunting...,

So there is this guy, James Forsyth. He was a lieutenant in the Bengal Staff Corps in India. He's also the author of The Sporting Rifle and Its Projectiles (1867)

He shot a LOT of game, large and also Dangerous in India. He had several friends that hunted in India and Africa, so he had personal as well as additional data to draw upon.

He quotes Sir Samuel White Baker, another hunter and author of renown on hunting, active in the time period, and also in India, and also hunting large as well as dangerous game,
"I consider a sporting range to be limited to a distance at which the shoulder of a deer may be fairly struck under ordinary circumstances-say 150 yards [or less]" (a lot of hunters then and now favor the sholder-shot)

Forsyth agreed when he commented on the quote:
"Most practical sportsmen will allow this [150 yards] to be a pretty correct definition, rather over than under the mark as far as my experience goes: 200 yards may be taken as the very outside limit at which it is ever advisable to fire at ordinary game."
Forsyth further wrote:
In the jungle, at least one-half [ of hunting shots taken] are under 50 yards, three fourths under 75, and all, with scarcely an exception, under 100; that is to say, these are the distances at which animals are usually killed in jungle shooting, and I imagine that the case is very much the same in other forest countries.

And, Forsyth preferred the patched round ball to the conical bullet, because he saw it took effect faster than the minie ball and other conical projectiles of his day.

I found it interesting that a lot of fellows who hunt with patched round ball have the same results in this century as were observed more than 150 years ago.

LD

 

[tenngun]

Agreed, and this was true back in the hey day of black powder hunting...,

So there is this guy, James Forsyth. He was a lieutenant in the Bengal Staff Corps in India. He's also the author of The Sporting Rifle and Its Projectiles (1867)

He shot a LOT of game, large and also Dangerous in India. He had several friends that hunted in India and Africa, so he had personal as well as additional data to draw upon.

He quotes Sir Samuel White Baker, another hunter and author of renown on hunting, active in the time period, and also in India, and also hunting large as well as dangerous game,
"I consider a sporting range to be limited to a distance at which the shoulder of a deer may be fairly struck under ordinary circumstances-say 150 yards [or less]" (a lot of hunters then and now favor the sholder-shot)

Forsyth agreed when he commented on the quote:
"Most practical sportsmen will allow this [150 yards] to be a pretty correct definition, rather over than under the mark as far as my experience goes: 200 yards may be taken as the very outside limit at which it is ever advisable to fire at ordinary game."
Forsyth further wrote:
In the jungle, at least one-half [ of hunting shots taken] are under 50 yards, three fourths under 75, and all, with scarcely an exception, under 100; that is to say, these are the distances at which animals are usually killed in jungle shooting, and I imagine that the case is very much the same in other forest countries.

And, Forsyth preferred the patched round ball to the conical bullet, because he saw it took effect faster than the minie ball and other conical projectiles of his day.

I found it interesting that a lot of fellows who hunt with patched round ball have the same results in this century as were observed more than 150 years ago.

LD

I like many often wondered if patching a ball in a smoothbore was done back in the day. General conclusion was it was a twentieth century thing.
While looking for something else I came across a quote from an HBC officer named Levin.
He mentioned patching a ball in a smoothbore in 1847 as common in Canada
What that got to do with the story here, only his mention that a rifle wasn't needed since to sixty yards a patched ball in a smoothbore will shoot as well as a rifle, and that at sixty yards or less was where most hunting took place
Sam observation as Forstyth forty years later

 

[westrayer]

I have a .54 Minnie mold and a T/C Maxi-ball mold, if interested