-
Friends, our 2nd Amendment rights are always under attack and the NRA has been a constant for decades in helping fight that fight.
We have partnered with the NRA to offer you a discount on membership and Muzzleloading Forum gets a small percentage too of each membership, so you are supporting both the NRA and us.
Use this link to sign up please; https://membership.nra.org/recruiters/join/XR045103
amount of powder burned in a given barrel
- Thread starter Jac Spring
- Start date
Help Support Muzzleloading Forum:
They wet the powder during manufacture. This tends to dissolve the saltpeter and that's what allows it to impregnate the charcoal. Same method that is used for the manufacture of many different blends for fireworks. If it doesn't absorb right, the blend doesn't work well.
Years ago I fired max loads over a sheet and gathered some up and lit it. It's definately powder, but I'm with Roundball on this one. I can't for the life of me understand how it doesn't ignite under the intense heat and pressure of ignition. Smokeless powders will do the same sometimes, and the unburned flakes will ignite when lit afterwards. Any ideas?
Just knocking around a thought - Newer blackpowders are glazed w/ graphite to keep it from absorbing water , could the glazing be heavier on some granules more than others , limiting their ignition. Could the graphite be some of residue you find in the snow or on the sheet, being black or un-burnt ? Hey guys it's early in the morning and can't sleep - my feeble mind just gets to wandering!!
Wildeagle,
The activated charcoal used as a filtering agent does not rely on "porosity" to do its job. Organic chemicals will cling to the surface of the carbon no matter its size or shape.
In black powder the charcoal is ground to a point in size where the so-called cell structure no longer exists.
The old idea was that in black powder the charcoal still retained its original cell structure and the solution of potassium nitrate had to work its way into the cells through the tiny openings in the cell walls.
The activated charcoal used as a filtering agent does not rely on "porosity" to do its job. Organic chemicals will cling to the surface of the carbon no matter its size or shape.
In black powder the charcoal is ground to a point in size where the so-called cell structure no longer exists.
The old idea was that in black powder the charcoal still retained its original cell structure and the solution of potassium nitrate had to work its way into the cells through the tiny openings in the cell walls.
Plink,
The only time I saw unburnt powder blown out of a barrel is when I shot some of the first Lidu powder in my Lyman Trade Rifle. The Lidu 2F was larger than 1F.
Not burning all of the powder in the bore is extremely rare in most bores. You have to cut a .50 caliber barrel down to around 20" to see it.
Charge volume comes into play in this. When you use very large charges, say 120 grains of something like 2Fg it takes up length in the bore. You light the back end of the charge and some of the charge is getting pushed down the bore while it is still igniting. Then if the grains are not consumed completely in the bore before the projectile leaves the muzzle they will be blown out into the air. As soon as they are blown out of the muzzle the rapid cooling kills their burning.
But in charges normally used in the gun the powder is burned completely.
Most of what you see blown out the muzzle as black blobs is fouling. I set up a trap to catch it and analyze it some years back. Looked at pH, any unburned carbon, particle size of the potash, etc.
The only time I saw unburnt powder blown out of a barrel is when I shot some of the first Lidu powder in my Lyman Trade Rifle. The Lidu 2F was larger than 1F.
Not burning all of the powder in the bore is extremely rare in most bores. You have to cut a .50 caliber barrel down to around 20" to see it.
Charge volume comes into play in this. When you use very large charges, say 120 grains of something like 2Fg it takes up length in the bore. You light the back end of the charge and some of the charge is getting pushed down the bore while it is still igniting. Then if the grains are not consumed completely in the bore before the projectile leaves the muzzle they will be blown out into the air. As soon as they are blown out of the muzzle the rapid cooling kills their burning.
But in charges normally used in the gun the powder is burned completely.
Most of what you see blown out the muzzle as black blobs is fouling. I set up a trap to catch it and analyze it some years back. Looked at pH, any unburned carbon, particle size of the potash, etc.
Wildeagle,
Graphite glazing was used on small-arms black powders back in the 1800's.
Graphite does NOT protect black powder against moisture. Graphite coatings are used where free-flowing powders are desired. This, from du Pont sources.
Graphite does not ignite until the temperature reaches 2000 degrees and then burns only slowly.
The amount of graphite used on the powder is very minute. A grain surface coating you could say is one graphite crystal in thickness.
I used to have a peanut butter jar sitting on the shelf behind my desk. Some people collect stamps. I collected bp bore fouling. Used it for testing.
Graphite glazing was used on small-arms black powders back in the 1800's.
Graphite does NOT protect black powder against moisture. Graphite coatings are used where free-flowing powders are desired. This, from du Pont sources.
Graphite does not ignite until the temperature reaches 2000 degrees and then burns only slowly.
The amount of graphite used on the powder is very minute. A grain surface coating you could say is one graphite crystal in thickness.
I used to have a peanut butter jar sitting on the shelf behind my desk. Some people collect stamps. I collected bp bore fouling. Used it for testing.
Wildeagle,
To expand upon the charcoal thing.
The Swiss char their buckthorn alder at a temperature not exceeding 320 C. During the charring process the wood produces creosote. All of the creosote attaches to the charcoal. If the charring temperature rises above 320 C the creosote will flash off and go out the charring retort vent stack.
The creosote is what gives the powder the desired "moist-burning" property (mit Nassbrand).
When I had worked this all out I was at first puzzled. Normally the creosote should volatilize and flash off at a lower temperature, around 280 C.
The charcoal holds the creosote until you "pump" enough heat into the system to overcome the attraction between the charcoal and the cresosote.
Remember you can re-activate activated charcoal by heating it in an oven. Basically using heat to drive off anything it picked up.
To expand upon the charcoal thing.
The Swiss char their buckthorn alder at a temperature not exceeding 320 C. During the charring process the wood produces creosote. All of the creosote attaches to the charcoal. If the charring temperature rises above 320 C the creosote will flash off and go out the charring retort vent stack.
The creosote is what gives the powder the desired "moist-burning" property (mit Nassbrand).
When I had worked this all out I was at first puzzled. Normally the creosote should volatilize and flash off at a lower temperature, around 280 C.
The charcoal holds the creosote until you "pump" enough heat into the system to overcome the attraction between the charcoal and the cresosote.
Remember you can re-activate activated charcoal by heating it in an oven. Basically using heat to drive off anything it picked up.
Ok guys, I have another idea here. I think the resistance caused by the weight of the projectile is a factor in how much powder is actually burned in the barrel.
The only time I can actually remember finding unburnt powder on the snow happened when I was about 17. I was experimenting with loads in an antique ML shotgun, to see what worked the best. I came up with the idea that if I put alot of powder, and just a little shot, it would really zing out there fast. I loaded her up with about 100 grains of powder and about a quarter ounce of shot. When I pulled the trigger, it kind of made a soft "poo" sound, and unburnt powder lay all over the snow in front of me. When I increased the amount of shot and lowered the powder volume, no unburnt powder.
Now I know a 12 guage barrel is large enough to burn 100 grains of powder if using a ball, but since I was trying a projectile weight that was less than a 12 guage ball, it caused a situation where all the powder woudn't burn. I guess that's why we use a big bunch of wadding to shoot blanks in our ML's on New Year's Eve, to add resistance so more powder will burn and make a bigger bang.
However, since Paul V's formula pertains to prb's, the resistance/projectile weight theory may not matter since a RB is the lightest projectile you can shoot in a rifle. Just an observation on my part. Carry on. Bill
The only time I can actually remember finding unburnt powder on the snow happened when I was about 17. I was experimenting with loads in an antique ML shotgun, to see what worked the best. I came up with the idea that if I put alot of powder, and just a little shot, it would really zing out there fast. I loaded her up with about 100 grains of powder and about a quarter ounce of shot. When I pulled the trigger, it kind of made a soft "poo" sound, and unburnt powder lay all over the snow in front of me. When I increased the amount of shot and lowered the powder volume, no unburnt powder.
Now I know a 12 guage barrel is large enough to burn 100 grains of powder if using a ball, but since I was trying a projectile weight that was less than a 12 guage ball, it caused a situation where all the powder woudn't burn. I guess that's why we use a big bunch of wadding to shoot blanks in our ML's on New Year's Eve, to add resistance so more powder will burn and make a bigger bang.
However, since Paul V's formula pertains to prb's, the resistance/projectile weight theory may not matter since a RB is the lightest projectile you can shoot in a rifle. Just an observation on my part. Carry on. Bill
wirehairman
40 Cal.
Charcoal is used as a carbon filter in water treatment, but the process utilizes chemical bonding versus a physical filtering process.
Edit: Wow! Numerous responses in the time it took me type that. :surrender:
Edit: Wow! Numerous responses in the time it took me type that. :surrender:
paulvallandigham
Passed On
- Joined
- Jan 9, 2006
- Messages
- 17,538
- Reaction score
- 87
My brother, Peter, is a mechanical engineer, and he got the formula from one of his sources. I will ask and post the answer, or ask him to come on and post the answer.
One of the advantages of being a lawyer is that I get to learn a lot of " stuff " about a lot of different things. All I need to know is who to call that will know answers and I can find answers to a lot of different things in a hurry. I get calls by other lawyers about gun laws, game codes, and tenant eviction laws, in addition to criminal law, because of the experience I have had in those fields. I am known locally for my knowledge about guns, and ballistics evidence, so I am often consulted privately by lawyers on these kinds of matters.
One of the advantages of being a lawyer is that I get to learn a lot of " stuff " about a lot of different things. All I need to know is who to call that will know answers and I can find answers to a lot of different things in a hurry. I get calls by other lawyers about gun laws, game codes, and tenant eviction laws, in addition to criminal law, because of the experience I have had in those fields. I am known locally for my knowledge about guns, and ballistics evidence, so I am often consulted privately by lawyers on these kinds of matters.
Blizzard of '93
Cannon
- Joined
- Oct 3, 2006
- Messages
- 7,237
- Reaction score
- 13
And i use a 50 gr. charge in my .50 for plinking around at the campsite. why waste powder?? it's an accurate load but I have to rezero my hunting load of 72 grs.
Does a Lawyer charge other Lawyers the same $50/minute that he charges us commoners? :rotf: :grin:
zonie
zonie
Dave Rosenthal
70 Cal.
- Joined
- Nov 24, 2006
- Messages
- 4,470
- Reaction score
- 24
Three Thousand an hour would sure buy alot of steak at Morton's of Chicago :shocked2: :rotf: .
One hand washes the other, Zonie!
Paul sounds like such an interesting fellow, I'd want to pick-up the Morton's check...as long as he didn't invite ALL of his Lawyer buddies :rotf: .
Yours for a nice, juicy steak!
Dave
One hand washes the other, Zonie!
Paul sounds like such an interesting fellow, I'd want to pick-up the Morton's check...as long as he didn't invite ALL of his Lawyer buddies :rotf: .
Yours for a nice, juicy steak!
Dave
Similar threads
