Another Hawken Question

[rickystl]

Thanks Alden. The barrel is a Green Mountain with a 1:70 twist. Actually, this gun was built from a TOTW kit. It's a bit different in that it uses a drum and nipple with an L&R Conversion lock vs the traditional Hawken style patent breech. But still retains the long Hawken style tang and a hooked breech. Sort of a transitional gun. I wasn't really trying to duplicate a Hawken per say. More a plains rifle done in the Hawken style. If that makes sense. :haha:

 

[galamb]

As Alden often points out, no two Hawkens were/are the same.

And while a drum and nipple on a Hawken were rare/atypical, there are a few surviving examples.

This is an S. Hawken, so built sometime after Jake's death (1849) - possibly re-used a flint barrel or perhaps simply "originally" built with a drum (not ever converted).

It also has an Ohio style'ish trigger guard which Sam tended to use on smaller caliber "local" rifles - although this is a 50 cal.

So you don't have to get "stuck" on the Bridger or Carson style which is (flogged) by the suppliers as "typical Hawken's", there is considerable variety to choose from and still stay "correct".

(note, BRASS furniture, single key and weight of 12 pounds)

Personal opinion on another question that was asked.

The "parts" available from TOTW are mediocre at best as far as the butt plates and trigger guards go. They would also have you believe that the "flat to butt grip rail" was an early trigger guard - that would depend on your definition of "early" - certainly not typical of an "early Hawken" (pre-1840).

Anyhow, Don Stith's castings are copied from "originals" and unless you cast/forge them yourself, you will not find more accurate components.

L&R locks does a fine job with their Warranted and T. Gibbons locks of replicating later Sam Hawken style's. Earlier J&S rifles, would in most cases, require a custom lock to emulate a particular original.

 

[daniel collums]

far as i target shoot is about 60 to 100 yards and from the bench i can hit almost the same spot each shot. if i try to stand and shoot i'm lucky to keep a 4 inch group on the long shots but the 60 yard shots group nice and tight.

 

[Spikebuck]

I returned two of the Pedersoli Hawkens to Cabela's after realizing that there was chatter marks in both of the barrels left by the broaching tool.

Are you talking about the "cheap" versions Pedersoli makes for Cabela's that are called "Hawken" but have only a passing resemblance? If so, those are a LONG ways off from the Rocky Mountain Hawken they make that is sold by not only Cabela's, but many other distributors. Not that there couldn't be problems with either, but I think they probably spend a little more quality time on the Rocky Mountain.

In answer to the original poster, I think a lot has to do with how much you want to spend and how much work you want to do on this project. There was a Pedersoli Rocky Mountain Hawken for sale on this forum for a reasonable cost that appears to now be gone. You can buy a kit for more money than that used rifle was selling for and also have to put in a LOT of hours. Many options.

I have a Pedersoli Rocky Mountain that is definitely one of my top muzzleloaders. I'm also building the TOW Early Flint Hawken kit and am confident that will be a fine rifle when completed. But as others have mentioned, they are heavy! I don't mind it and use a sling. But then I'm not trekking miles around the mountains or tundra either. :grin:

 

[daniel collums]

that is my rifle, i'm trying to get over the weight issue. i'm still shooting it and now have around 125 rounds fired through it. i just wish it was a pound lighter cause its a real tack driver. just to heavy to tote.

 

[Dphar]

I am considering purchasing in the future a Hawken style rifle. I want to get one that looks as historically correct as possible. I traded a hundgun a few years back for a Traditions .50 flintlock Penn rifle. Walnut stock on that rifle got messed up and I now have the 42" barrel and lock (which I had replaced)and all the rest. I spoke with TOW about having that barrel cut down to about 33 or 34" and using it to have a Hawken built. I would also want this Hawken to have a percussion lock as I already have a couple of Flint locks. They said that it could be done but stated that it would still be a spanish barrel. I am assuming that they are not as good of quality as others. In your opinion would I be wasting my time going this route or should I look at maybe purchasing a Pedersoli Rocky Mountain or something like that. I have a couple of TC Hawkens one 50 and the 45 that I have listed forsale. They are nice rifles but just do not seem historically correct to me. I would sure appreciate your input into this. Thanks.

For which period?
The later Hawkens were often much bulkier than the earlier rifles and Sams work was different than Jakes.

The Bridger, Carson and Johnson rifles are late.
There are a number of J&S guns that are what I like the call "Jake" rifles they have a slight curve to the upper and lower buttstock lines and are generally slimmer than the later rifles.
These are all Hawken rifles with the possible exception of the lowest, long FS rifle bottom full view rifle which I think was converted to percussion and maybe freshed by the Hawken Shop and then stamped.

This rifle is brass mounted

Note that the brass mounted rifle is slimmer than the Johnson Rifle

The middle rifle here has the slight "Roman nose" buttstock and likely dates to early-mid 1830s since the 1836 dated silver mounted rifle has a similar lock plate.

You need to buy John Bairds "Hawken Rifles the Mountain Man's Choice" and "15 Years in the Hawken lode. This last has a lot of filler but has photos and some good line drawings. Baird's timeline for the Hawkens in St Louis is thought now to he faulty.
But you need these. You can get good parts, TGs and breeched from the Hawken Shop, Track of the Wolf (not their buttplates though), Don Stith has partial kits including stocks carved from original rifles.
There is a lot of stuff out there called "Hawken" that barely qualifies so you need to look at originals or photos on originals and descriptions to make and accurate choice.
This is the Bridger Rifle in Helena Mt. Its very hard to get photos of due to the way its cased and lighted but its virtually identical to the Johnson rifle which is also difficult to photo...

If you want an "Fur Trade" Hawken these late rifles are not correct.
Many "Hawken" precarved stocks are not correct either.

If the barrel is to be cut it must be done from the breech end then rethreaded for the plug. It cut at the muzzle there is risk of muzzle run out. If you want a FS rifle you really need Baird's first book and a look at "Firearms of the American West 1803-1865" by Worman and Garavaglia is a really good idea in any case. Try inter-library loan for this last one. SFAIK its out of print and pricy now unless you get lucky.
Gotta run.
Dan