Another Knife Question

[pondoro]

What was the most common tang in the 1700's and 1800's? Full tangs are strong and easy to put scales on. Tapered tangs save metal (precious in older times).

How common were each? What about different places and periods?

Thanks

 

[colmoultrie]

As I understand it - and take it with a grain of salt, as I'm not an expert, but have read a bit - the most common tang in the 18th century would be a tapered half-tang, with two-piece handles held on with iron pins, and the extra space the tang didn't fill filled in with cutler's cement. That seems to be the most common tang for the most common type of knife, the common Sheffield butcher or "scalping" knife in the British colonies in the 18th century.

Others more knowledgeable than I will doubtless add or correct me.

 

[LRB]

The common 18th c. English and French scalpers were a half tanged one piece grip using a slot in the wood grip, and secured by iron pins. Three by the English, and two by the French typically. The French tangs were always tapered. The English could be tapered or not, depending on the manufacturer and time frame. Full tangs, tapered and non-tapered were also available, usually it would seem as general purpose kitchen types. Narrow stick type tangs were also used. These scalper types were imported by the thousands, or tens of thousands into the 19th c. with a gap during the AWI. As far as cutlers resin to fill the grip over lap gaps, the French did not use it, as their grips did not over lap as much as the English designs. Actually, not all, or possibly any of the English scalpers used it either. Both French and English knives could be found in the American colonies due to trade practices. The "typical" differences in the French and English scalpers were the French had thicker blades of around 1/8", a dropped point, and used two iron retaining pins of about 1/8" diameter. The English used thinner blades of around 1/16", a raised point, and three iron retaining pins of about 3/32" diameter. Both used beech wood and boxwood commonly, and both also used exotic woods from Africa and SA on many. It would seem the English used exotics a little more than the French, with reddish woods being very popular. However, one must consider that there were many other types of imported knives than just scalpers, and other countries also exporting them.

 

[Ken Cormier]

The knife boss has written nuf :bow: said.

 

[LRB]

Chuck Burrows, LaBonte, could give more detailed info than I. One interesting detail I omitted, was that some English knives were made with tangs of soft iron, forge welded to the blades just forward of the grip area usually. One can see the joint lines on many as they age. It could be that the early English scalpers with non-tapered tangs were done this way, and left full thick for strength. I'm not sure of that, but it would explain the full thick half tangs. Many of the non-scalper exports had integral bolsters, but not really in all cases. The French separately forge welded most of their bolsters onto the blades giving the illusion of being integrally forged from the blade stock. I don't know if the English did the same, or not.

 

[crockett]

On the half tangs, I think on the scalper type blades the taper was the same on the top/back/spine and the bottom/edge. In other words if you looked at the top of the handle and the tang and then looked at the bottom of the handle and the tang, the taper looked the same. I think the back of the half tang was rounded in some instances- Wick would know more on that aspect.
On butcher knives with a half tang the shape was often different. There was the same front to back taper as on the scalper but then there was a second taper from the spine down to the edge. This double taper ended up creating a 45 degree angle at the back of the tang. On a butcher, if you look at the top of the handle and the tang- it shows the taper and is similar to the scalper but if you look at the bottom of the handle, the tang area is a thin line, the knife edge just continued into the handle area and, due to the 45 degree angle, the length of the tang is shorter.
On the thinner Sheffield/English blades. The English claimed the thinner steel was just as strong due to superior English steel. That's probably true. I guess. Might just be the English being English.
And, as Wick said- don't forget the rat tail type tangs.
On the full tangs, there has been a lot said that they are pc so I guess they are although I haven't seen many. We have to be careful here....most of the replicas today (Russell, Etc.) are only available in full tang and everyone wants to think that what they carry is original so there might be a desire to figure full tangs are pc. As I said, a lot of folks more knowledgeable than I have said such, including the company historian at Russell, but I think they most likely were not very common.
The red handled scalper. Once again a lot of confusion for me at least. 1820 North West Company invoices list barwood and camwood and Denig (A post factor in America) said logwood was used. Later 1857 Wilson catalogs list rosewood. I think Meriwether Lewis said red dye was used, so a lot of ways to get a red handle.

 

[LRB]

"On butcher knives with a half tang the shape was often different. There was the same front to back taper as on the scalper but then there was a second taper from the spine down to the edge. This double taper ended up creating a 45 degree angle at the back of the tang. On a butcher, if you look at the top of the handle and the tang- it shows the taper and is similar to the scalper but if you look at the bottom of the handle, the tang area is a thin line, the knife edge just continued into the handle area and, due to the 45 degree angle, the length of the tang is shorter."

Crockett, do you know if this type of taper is 18th, 19th, or both centuries. Also, I have seen a drawing of the 18th c. French scalper, boucheron, with knife edges all the way around their tapered tang, just to add more confusion and controversy. I don't know if that is a common feature on all French scalpers or not. I know that one well known expert alludes that it is, but I have found him to contradict himself off and on with various details.

 

[pondoro]

So if I look at the tang of a tapered half tang which way does it taper? i.e. would I see the taper looking down on the spine or looking from the side of the knife? The second case is like a modern file tang, flat in the thickness but tapered on the broad size. Thanks!

 

[LRB]

In scalpers, you will see the taper from a top view and bottom view. The end of the tangs would be near a knife edge with rounded corners. The French type may, or may not have an edge also on top and bottom. Can't say why, but that may be the case. At least one relic had this feature. The grip on an English will over lap the tang 1/8" or so on the bottom. The French would over lap just a tad bit to none at all. It is speculated that grips were made as one size fits all for that category of knives, hence the over lap on the smaller sizes. Some believe that the English filled the over lap gap with cutlers resin, but the evidence is sparse to none. So far as I have found, no traces of cutlers resin has been found on relic blades. English knives were made to specs in inches. The French knives were made in "Pouces", in which one pouce is 1 1/16" of an inch. Grips were shorter than what we are used to. One other point, on both English and French scalpers, is that the grips extended 1/8" and more forward into the blades, over lapping the junction of the blade heel with the tang. As to blade heels. The French always rounded theirs, while the English were straight with a very slight forward angle.

 

[crockett]

I'm mostly interested in the mountain man era so all my research is pretty much 1820-1840. That angled taper, to the best of my knowledge, that was found only on butcher knives but I might have simply not found scalpers that could have such. On the 1700's- I haven't researched that time frame.
On the butcher knives, If you hold the blade horizontal, point to your left and tang to your right, the 45 degree angle is such that the top/spine is long and the end of the tang slopes or undercuts forward so that the bottom on the tang is shorter. And, of course there is also the front to back taper, which is best see looking down on the top of the tang's spine. These would be the Wilson butcher knives of the mountain man, fur trade era.

 

[pondoro]

Thanks. It is a bit ironic, I want to make a realistic replica, but I will use band saw, belt sander, drill press, and Molybdenum high-speed steel to make my "1780's" knife.

 

[Claude Mathis]

Thanks. It is a bit ironic, I want to make a realistic replica, but I will use band saw, belt sander, drill press, and Molybdenum high-speed steel to make my "1780's" knife.

And you're asking about it on a computer. :wink:

 

[LRB]

Thanks. It is a bit ironic, I want to make a realistic replica, but I will use band saw, belt sander, drill press, and Molybdenum high-speed steel to make my "1780's" knife.

If you want to keep the cost down, that may be the way to go. If you want to make it easy on yourself, buy a piece of A-2 Precision Ground Tool Steel, then when ready, send the blade out to a pro heat treat service. A-2 comes as dead soft, easy to drill and file, and as a knife blade is exceptional in edge retention. It is an air hardening carbon steel which will stain and rust, so aging it is no problem, if desired.

 

[pondoro]

Sounds like great advice, Mr. LRB. I found a few on line. Who would heat treat them and how much would that cost? What is the advantage of A-2 over 1095? The advantage of the hacksaw blades is I've got them and they need not be sent out for heat treat. But if sending out for heat treat is simple and not too costly I understand the advantage of grinding on a soft steel.

 

[LRB]

Well, I don't know what you care to spend. You should get a good usable knife from that moly steel and spend little to no money. I don't know what the heat treaters will charge you. I think the biggest problem with the moly steel will be drilling pin holes in it, but that can be dealt with at the cost of a few drill bits. You might try Texas Knife Makers Supply for heat treat. They do only air hardening steels, but often the cost is the same for one as it is for five or six.
1095 is a difficult steel to heat treat, and would also need to be sent out. A-2 is more abrasion resistant and soft when you get it. 1095 often comes in improperly annealed for easy hand working. I would suggest 1080 or 1084, but you will need at least a gallon of cooking oil, preferably canola oil, in order to heat treat it best, if you want to do yourself. 1080/84 is almost fool proof to HT for even amateurs, and makes a fine blade. Many pro's use it. It will beat poorly HTed 1095 in performance. It is also pretty cheap to buy.

 

[pondoro]

Thanks Wick. As a serious craftsman your advice is valuable. Thank you for your patient and thorough answers.

 

[salkehatchie]

Thanks to Wick as usual.

Now I have been told that 1080/1084 actually more closely represents what "they" would have used "in the day". As opposed to the 1095.

For what its worth.

 

[LRB]

That is true. Even 1070 would be in that grouping, if one wants to experience the performance levels of original equipment, which is fine, but for myself, I would rather have an edge, pun intended, over some of the original implements and accoutrements. That said, 1080/84 will make a fine blade that will hold an edge very, very well. 1095, if not properly heat treated, will do no better, and often worse. Many seem to believe 1095 is just another simple carbon steel, but it is not, and cannot be heat treated as such and be expected to perform as it should, or could. It is not a steel for the beginner, or the uninformed.