Another Unusual Gun

[jackpine54]

Thanks for the lesson. That's a very interesting design.

 

[JCKelly]

Bismuth shot wouldn't harm you barrel, would it?

 

[hanshi]

Never heard of this one before; but I have now. Very clever and practical.

 

[Feltwad]

Bismuth shot wouldn't harm you barrel, would it?

This is a fowling gun mostly for geese I do not think bismuth would damage the barrel but it has not a killing power of lead and steel will certainly damage a barrel this I have found in guns that I have restored I will enter another follow up on this type of ignition at a later date
Feltwad

 

[toot]

you gotta rare bird there, simply a piece of art.

 

[DuncNZ]

Great stuff.
I'm wondering why it didn't expand further in popularity. To my mind this seems vastly superior to the standard percussion cap.

I expect because . The tubes are longer than a cap and use more materials and probably more expensive and slower to make, cant be easily used in capping device and take a lot more fiddling about to get it fitted correctly . Major developments in firearms then as now were largely developed for the military and a pouch of top hat caps were easier to use . The danger of the tube blowing out and injuring someone was very real , even with protective shields , The tube lock was an easy conversion from a flintlock which gave it momentary popularity . In the end it was just a part of the development and evolution of firearm ignition , which still goes on to day . Read : Early Percussion Firearms by Lewis Winant . I got mine secondhand off the net, it cost more in shipping than it did to buy ,

 

[BoomStick]

Very interesting and thanks for sharing. Firearm technology advanced pretty quickly from the 1820s to 1860s, and this is one of probably several novel ignition methods that didn't make the final cut (although it may have been a step along the way.)

 

[Rudyard]

I had sent in a post with pics pertaining to tube locks &' devolveing flint to cap & reverting again but its in the post re an old gun querry with Broken nock . Cut finger makes sound observations but in a wet conditions hunting rifle it had merit . & Austria adopted the tube lock for its army .
Regards Rudyard

 

[Feltwad]

I expect because . The tubes are longer than a cap and use more materials and probably more expensive and slower to make, cant be easily used in capping device and take a lot more fiddling about to get it fitted correctly . Major developments in firearms then as now were largely developed for the military and a pouch of top hat caps were easier to use . The danger of the tube blowing out and injuring someone was very real , even with protective shields , The tube lock was an easy conversion from a flintlock which gave it momentary popularity . In the end it was just a part of the development and evolution of firearm ignition , which still goes on to day . Read : Early Percussion Firearms by Lewis Winant . I got mine secondhand off the net, it cost more in shipping than it did to buy ,

Most of the UK makers of tube locks was mainly for sporting guns and rifles not forgetting live pigeon shooting from traps , the tube lock was well known with makers but was held back by Forsythe who brought a court case against any one who used a compound similar has used in his sent bottle lock this held of many makers Manton continued to use it which was one of the main reasons he went bankrupt Before it became well known the tube lock along with the patch lock and other types had lost favour to the copper percussion cap but some still prefer the tube lock and it was made till the end of the percussion era
Feltwad
Live Pigeon Shoot

 

[Rudyard]

Good summary Felt Wad. I thought Manton went broke due in part his battles with Forsythe & bad book depts . ( There was a Manton & Co gun shop in Calcutta & an N C Daw. I bought flasks & moulds from them in 1969 old stock but that's irrelavant to the post ) .I did sent a post shewing my experiments with makeing tube locks and altering flint to cap at will .Per Col Hawkers mentions useing L&R Late English locks , but sending pics is troublesome might try again for this post later ' Kit Ravenshear use to tinker with' Devolveing' locks Flint to cap at will .
Regards Rudyard

 

[Feltwad]

Good summary Felt Wad. I thought Manton went broke due in part his battles with Forsythe & bad book depts . ( There was a Manton & Co gun shop in Calcutta & an N C Daw. I bought flasks & moulds from them in 1969 old stock but that's irrelavant to the post ) .I did sent a post shewing my experiments with makeing tube locks and altering flint to cap at will .Per Col Hawkers mentions useing L&R Late English locks , but sending pics is troublesome might try again for this post later ' Kit Ravenshear use to tinker with' Devolveing' locks Flint to cap at will .
Regards Rudyard

Yes I remember Kit Ravenshaw when he worked for Normans Of Framlingham UK that would be in the 1960s I did buy from him before he moved to the States older members of the Forums may well remember him I understand that he is now no longer with us .
Feltwad

Shop

 

[springfield art]

Enclosed is a image of another unusual gun or should I say ignition a 6 bore tube lock fowler by Alfred Clayton ,although the tube was a early type on ignition mostly by Manton of the 1800-10 period this gun was built in the 1850,s mainly because some fowlers preferred the tube lock in weather conditions .Alfred Clayton along with Joseph Manton were the gun makers for Col Peter Hawker and mentioned in his dairies
Several gun makers built tube locks but not in a vast quantity and not many would have crossed the pond if any. This gun was used in the fowling season but when lead shot was banned for wild fowling shooting and to save this rare gun from barrel damage using steel shot it is now pensioned off.
Feltwad
6 bore tube lock
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Lock Clos Up
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Tubes
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Tube Holder
View attachment 109967

I'd be tempted to have it converted to regular percussion! Just sayin'. Very interesting.

 

[Feltwad]

I'd be tempted to have it converted to regular percussion! Just sayin'. Very interesting.

Springfield this is a rare gun with a not to often seen ignition made by a top Uk gun maker . Why Why ?????????? convert it to percussion I cannot see the logic
no offence
Feltwad

 

[Rod Man]

Yes I remember Kit Ravenshaw when he worked for Normans Of Framlingham UK that would be in the 1960s I did buy from him before he moved to the States older members of the Forums may well remember him I understand that he is now no longer with us .
Feltwad
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Shop
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Shoot, It would be neat jus to pilfer the "bargain bin"!!!

RM

 

[Rudyard]

Dear Feltwad .Kit didn't work for Normans of Framlingham he was the owner he bought an old name & his shop was near or in the Castle I bought my first rifled barrel A Delcur 1" 40 cal oct all he had. My first rifle being a Jager looking affair after the ' Grice rifle' in Blackmore's book shot ball indifferent at 100 yards but a linen patched picket style bullet shot like a 451. Used it years it ended up on a Cattle Station Nr Surat & got deemed a' firearm 'by anti Gun QLD Govt . So got flicked of for 150 $ to Searles of Brisbane. Ide like to know where it went , two part beech stock with dragon side plate & added cheek piece, bears on the breech as proof marks . Kit went to Canada then to some Coal mine Museum in Pennsilvainia ( His family once owned coal mines ) Then set up as gun maker restorer & even took pupils' live in' . I had dealings with Kit & stayed up by Frackville even assembled the odd lock & strangley when he died in Monty Carlo (Allways did have style our Kit !) his ashes where fired over his land in PA from a canon .But his parts went to the ex pupil who was a restorer , & I bought them all when he packed up. Amongst the parts was a Ketland lock looked familier & sure enough a misicule my initials were stamped inside the plate . He could be testy He once told me" Don't fly your flag off my flag", As we both made military arms . 'I made the 1776 Tower Rifle before he made any but he never mentioned me in his article 'My expeiriences with the 1776 Tower rifle ' . But I had firmly my own flag and produced better finnished work but that's by the by. He certainly was a charecter .

Regards Rudyard (Or some other bloke then!)

 

[Feltwad]

Dear Feltwad .Kit didn't work for Normans of Framlingham he was the owner he bought an old name & his shop was near or in the Castle I bought my first rifled barrel A Delcur 1" 40 cal oct all he had. My first rifle being a Jager looking affair after the ' Grice rifle' in Blackmore's book shot ball indifferent at 100 yards but a linen patched picket style bullet shot like a 451. Used it years it ended up on a Cattle Station Nr Surat & got deemed a' firearm 'by anti Gun QLD Govt . So got flicked of for 150 $ to Searles of Brisbane. Ide like to know where it went , two part beech stock with dragon side plate & added cheek piece, bears on the breech as proof marks . Kit went to Canada then to some Coal mine Museum in Pennsilvainia ( His family once owned coal mines ) Then set up as gun maker restorer & even took pupils' live in' . I had dealings with Kit & stayed up by Frackville even assembled the odd lock & strangley when he died in Monty Carlo (Allways did have style our Kit !) his ashes where fired over his land in PA from a canon .But his parts went to the ex pupil who was a restorer , & I bought them all when he packed up. Amongst the parts was a Ketland lock looked familier & sure enough a misicule my initials were stamped inside the plate . He could be testy He once told me" Don't fly your flag off my flag", As we both made military arms . 'I made the 1776 Tower Rifle before he made any but he never mentioned me in his article 'My expeiriences with the 1776 Tower rifle ' . But I had firmly my own flag and produced better finnished work but that's by the by. He certainly was a charecter .

Regards Rudyard (Or some other bloke then!)

Well Rudyard for over 60years I have always understood that Kit worked for Normans thanks for putting me right I have learned something that I did not Know
Feltwad

 

[Rudyard]

Yes he went in with' Coach Harness' Sandy Macnab who kept the name but sold out & went to play Shakespeare at Stratford .on Avon .

"This story shall good men teach his son, That Crispin Crispian shall nere go by from this day to the ending of the world that we in it shall be rememberered .
We few We happy few ,We band of brothers , For he who sheds his blood with me this day shall Be my brother ,Be he nare so vile. This day shall gentle his condition! & gentlemen in England now abed shall think them selves accursed and hold their man hood cheap when any speaks that fought with us on This St Crispins day!."

Shakespeare's Henry the 5th at Agincourt Just threw it in seemed fitting , Regards Rudyard

 

[toot]

Looks "your a peean"........

and just how would you know what it looks like?

 

[toot]

Yes I remember Kit Ravenshaw when he worked for Normans Of Framlingham UK that would be in the 1960s I did buy from him before he moved to the States older members of the Forums may well remember him I understand that he is now no longer with us .
Feltwad
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look at the size of the gun over head! is it one of them PUNT GUNS? if so what does PUNT stand for?

 

[Feltwad]

and just how would you know what it looks like?

Explain Please
Feltwad