bldtrailer
Pilgrim
Boredom has come but I wanted to find out about Gain twist barrels pros & cons
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Any Gain twist barrel shooters?
- Thread starter bldtrailer
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Depends on whom you talk to...,
Today it is a custom order, so one might think that the issue has been decided, and that the uniform twist rate barrel has been proved superior...
But I've never seen the paper where anybody did a study.
In 1940, it was still in debate..., maybe it is today.
Accordingly, Ned Roberts wrote in The Muzzle-Loading Cap Lock Rifle, that...,
"John R. Chapman, in his book, The Improved American Rifle, (doubtless the best volume on the muzzle-loading rife heretofore) published in 1848 but written in 1844, states: 'I venture to assert that a rifle with a gaining twist, in a windy day at 220 yards, will make a string [group] one-third shorter than a rifle with a regular twist.' ...The man now living who has been acknowledged as 'The World's best rifle barrel maker' - that master rifle-maker, Mr. Harry M. Pope, claims that the gain twist is superior in accuracy to the uniform twist for lead bullet rifles. "
Please note the distance where the advantage is noted, 220 yards in the wind, also known as 40 rods, target shooting. They are using conical bullets, with paper or linen patching.
Mr. Pope is further quoted as to the reasons why this type of rifling works so well.
"The advantages of the gain twist are three: 1st- The Twist being less at the breech, gives less friction to the bullet; it therefore starts easier and quicker, giving the powder less time to burn on in front of the chamber, which therefore fouls less than in a barrel of uniform twist at the same necessary muzzle pitch. 2nd- The slight change in the angle of rifling, in connection with the choke boring, effectually shuts off any escape of gas and prevents gas cutting. 3rd- It holds the muzzle-loaded bullet in position much better than a uniform twist."
Further in the book, a barrel maker of target barrels, Norman Brockway, was quoted as saying, "I experimented extensively with the gain twist and the uniform twist of rifling and finally decided that the uniform twist was the best -gave the better accuracy at 40 rods- and the gain twist is much more difficult to cut right than the uniform twist, so I quit making rifles with the gain twist."
So who is to say? For the paper patched, conical bullet, and combined with a choked bore, it might be an advantage. On the other hand the last quote seems to indicate that it's was a pain in the backside, and perhaps was not enough of an advantage that uniform twist rifling (what we have today) being so much easier to make, for most of our modern applications it makes sense to do it cheaper, and very well.
LD
Today it is a custom order, so one might think that the issue has been decided, and that the uniform twist rate barrel has been proved superior...
But I've never seen the paper where anybody did a study.
In 1940, it was still in debate..., maybe it is today.
Accordingly, Ned Roberts wrote in The Muzzle-Loading Cap Lock Rifle, that...,
"John R. Chapman, in his book, The Improved American Rifle, (doubtless the best volume on the muzzle-loading rife heretofore) published in 1848 but written in 1844, states: 'I venture to assert that a rifle with a gaining twist, in a windy day at 220 yards, will make a string [group] one-third shorter than a rifle with a regular twist.' ...The man now living who has been acknowledged as 'The World's best rifle barrel maker' - that master rifle-maker, Mr. Harry M. Pope, claims that the gain twist is superior in accuracy to the uniform twist for lead bullet rifles. "
Please note the distance where the advantage is noted, 220 yards in the wind, also known as 40 rods, target shooting. They are using conical bullets, with paper or linen patching.
Mr. Pope is further quoted as to the reasons why this type of rifling works so well.
"The advantages of the gain twist are three: 1st- The Twist being less at the breech, gives less friction to the bullet; it therefore starts easier and quicker, giving the powder less time to burn on in front of the chamber, which therefore fouls less than in a barrel of uniform twist at the same necessary muzzle pitch. 2nd- The slight change in the angle of rifling, in connection with the choke boring, effectually shuts off any escape of gas and prevents gas cutting. 3rd- It holds the muzzle-loaded bullet in position much better than a uniform twist."
Further in the book, a barrel maker of target barrels, Norman Brockway, was quoted as saying, "I experimented extensively with the gain twist and the uniform twist of rifling and finally decided that the uniform twist was the best -gave the better accuracy at 40 rods- and the gain twist is much more difficult to cut right than the uniform twist, so I quit making rifles with the gain twist."
So who is to say? For the paper patched, conical bullet, and combined with a choked bore, it might be an advantage. On the other hand the last quote seems to indicate that it's was a pain in the backside, and perhaps was not enough of an advantage that uniform twist rifling (what we have today) being so much easier to make, for most of our modern applications it makes sense to do it cheaper, and very well.
LD
Larry Akers
40 Cal.
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I cut the barrels I use for target pistols with a gain twist. I don't do this because a gain twist is any more accurate than a uniform twist, but to reduce the amount of torque the pistol exerts at the shot. I think that anything I can do as a builder to stabilize the pistol will contribute to its potential accuracy. I also install patent breeches on flintlock pistols, not because they (as I believe) have faster ignition but because they give much more uniform pressure which contributes to greater potential accuracy.
(my emphasis)
I wonder, as I had not even thought of that, if Gain Twist for some shooters helps them when using a rifle, to be better with follow through, and thus for them, that type of barrel shoots better ??? So for many of us who are normally not going beyond 100 yards, and beyond 150 yards is quite rare, perhaps the advantage is unseen. But for those going to 40 rods [220 yards] back in the day...it was much more pronounced and possibly results were more easily seen???
LD
Pete G
76 Cal.
Norman Brockway did not like gain twist. That's all anyone needs to know. 
Talking to folks (barrel makers, shooters, etc.), and reading, the conclusion I have come to is there is no advantage in a gain twist over regular. I seem to recall that Numrich made a gain twist for a while but gave it up as pointless.
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Didn't the older reproduction PH Musketoons, made in England, that were renowned for their accuracy, have gain twist barrels?
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I thought on this for some time, and I know of nowhere one could get gain twist rifling … but i'm on the verge of another build, so if someone out there knows of a source, please post it.
tanks!
tanks!
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Norman Brockway did not like gain twist. That's all anyone needs to know.
But Harry Pope DID make, promote and use gain twist barrels.
I had the chance to have a custom gain twist barrel made...i regret not doing it.
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TNGhost.I believe All the P/H M/L barrels were Hammer Forged so they have would have been Plain Not Gain twist. Unfortunately David Monk, the man who could have told us all about it died some years ago. When P/H folded David went on to build MONK RIGBY Match Rifles which either had Machine cut .451 Rigby style Gain Twist Barrels or P/H .451 Henry Hammer Forged Sleeved tubes. OLD DOG
RAEDWALD
40 Cal.
There is an argument for a losing twist barrel. i.e. the opposite of gaining twist. This looks at RPS*. The bullet begins at a low velocity and progressively gets faster as it moves up the barrel. Going from zero upon ignition to exit with the final muzzle velocity.
Thus, for the same RPS, the slow initial speed needs a fast twist but the need for a fast twist diminishes as the bullet speeds up so it can exit with a slower twist for that same RPS. Therefore the logic is that a losing twist, suitably chosen, will give a constant RPS for the bullet as it transits the barrel. If the stress upon the bullet (i.e. friction and taking up/maintaining the rifling) is proportional to the RPS rather than the velocity, then the losing twist will minimise that stress.
* RPS is Revolutions Per Second.
Thus, for the same RPS, the slow initial speed needs a fast twist but the need for a fast twist diminishes as the bullet speeds up so it can exit with a slower twist for that same RPS. Therefore the logic is that a losing twist, suitably chosen, will give a constant RPS for the bullet as it transits the barrel. If the stress upon the bullet (i.e. friction and taking up/maintaining the rifling) is proportional to the RPS rather than the velocity, then the losing twist will minimise that stress.
* RPS is Revolutions Per Second.
Col. Batguano
75 Cal.
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There is less initial friction with gain twist, so the breech area will heat up less than with a constant twist. That's not much of an issue with ML'ers though, and our pressures aren't as great as the smokeless boys. Still, in WW I and II, the Italians made their Carcano's with gain twist for that very reason.
Colerain sells gain twist rifled barrels in the Classic American pattern (42" long), and the Early American pattern (38" long). They do not rifle the .36 caliber in a gain twist, but do so for all of the other calibers, .40 thru .62.
In the 42" long barrel the rate of twist at the breech is approximately 1:81", and the rate of twist at the muzzle is 1:36". This is for all calibers. According to Scott, Colerain has sold approximately 1000 of these gain twist barrels over the last 10 years.
You don't hear much on ANY forums about Colerain's gain twist barrels. But, according to Brad Emig, who has sold quite a few of them, as well as built rifles out of them, ALL of his gain twist barrel customers are happy with their purchases.
According to Scott, the 1:36" twist is capable of stabilizing many weights of lead conicals, regardless of caliber, if shot over a tight fitting over powder wad.
But, both Scott & Brad both say that it's the gain twists ability to allow a shooter to utilize many different weights of powder charges, with equally excellent accuracy, that makes the barrels so versatile.
But, everytime the question of gain twist is raised on a muzzleloading forum, all an OP is going to get is the same regurgitated information that is essentially useless in helping a person to accurately make up their mind.
I would suggest that if you are a shooter interested in any way in a gain twist barrel to go to Colerain's website, and look at the Current Inventory page to see what is available. I don't think you can go wrong, especially if a .40 caliber, or a .58 caliber barrel is what you are in the market for. These happen to be the two most popular calibers selling lately, according to Scott.
Brad Emig told me not too long ago that local shooters in Pennsylvania were getting upwards of 2,500 f.p.s. velocity in their Colerain .40 caliber gain twist barrels.
In the 42" long barrel the rate of twist at the breech is approximately 1:81", and the rate of twist at the muzzle is 1:36". This is for all calibers. According to Scott, Colerain has sold approximately 1000 of these gain twist barrels over the last 10 years.
You don't hear much on ANY forums about Colerain's gain twist barrels. But, according to Brad Emig, who has sold quite a few of them, as well as built rifles out of them, ALL of his gain twist barrel customers are happy with their purchases.
According to Scott, the 1:36" twist is capable of stabilizing many weights of lead conicals, regardless of caliber, if shot over a tight fitting over powder wad.
But, both Scott & Brad both say that it's the gain twists ability to allow a shooter to utilize many different weights of powder charges, with equally excellent accuracy, that makes the barrels so versatile.
But, everytime the question of gain twist is raised on a muzzleloading forum, all an OP is going to get is the same regurgitated information that is essentially useless in helping a person to accurately make up their mind.
I would suggest that if you are a shooter interested in any way in a gain twist barrel to go to Colerain's website, and look at the Current Inventory page to see what is available. I don't think you can go wrong, especially if a .40 caliber, or a .58 caliber barrel is what you are in the market for. These happen to be the two most popular calibers selling lately, according to Scott.
Brad Emig told me not too long ago that local shooters in Pennsylvania were getting upwards of 2,500 f.p.s. velocity in their Colerain .40 caliber gain twist barrels.
2500fps?? What powder & how much ??? What Bullet & how heavy ???? What Crono ????? 
..OLD DOG..
..OLD DOG..
Eddie Southgate
36 Cal.
If I'm not mistaken the high dollar Target version of the Remington revolvers that Dixie used to sell were gain twist . Never shot one so I couldn't say if that made them shoot any better than the other Italian copies or not but for the price difference one would hope that they would.
Call Brad Emig at Cabin Creek Muzzleloading.2500fps?? What powder & how much ??? What Bullet & how heavy ???? What Crono ?????
All I know is what he related to me in a conversation about 2 months ago. I have no reason to doubt him. He was referring to patched balls, of course. 87grains/92 grains, 0.390" diameter/0.395" diameter using fffg black powder, I would presume. I would hazard an educated guess that the patch would be at least 0.020" thick, possibly thicker. The barrel's crown would be smoothly radiused (coned) to allow for a very tight patch/ball combination.
With a 1:81" rate of twist at the breech, a fairly large charge of fffg black powder could be utilized, one not normally associated with a .40 caliber barrel.
Skeptics should keep in mind that a lot of what you/we/I think we know about gain twist barrels is just old information repeated ad nauseum as gospel until it has been accepted as WRITTEN IN STONE.
Until a shooter takes one of Colerain's, or Bobby Hoyt's, modern muzzleloading gain twist barrels, and spends SIGNIFICANT time at the range, and in the field shooting at animals, I for one am reluctant to rely on the old information being bandied about.
Primarily, because the vast majority of that information has NO REAL VALUE for a black powder shooter using patched balls. It applies almost exclusively to conical bullets being shot out of gain twist barrels that bear virtually no resemblance, twist wise, to a Colerain or Hoyt barrel.
bldtrailer
Pilgrim
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