Anyone been out to Ben Avery this weeks.

[akapennypincher]

Asking as the NMLRA was scheduled to have a national shoot this week. Was hoping to hear there were many traders, and black powder sales to the public like GOD (good old days).

Was out at the SASS Shoot last Saturday hoping to find real back powder, none. For. Sale...Bummer.

Reports?

 

[trent/OH]

The Western is indeed in progress, from March 1-7. Forecasted turnout of shooters and traders? I don't know. But I hope it gets bigger and BETTER every year!

 

[qtrhrs7]

I drove down this morning. There were about a dozen or fourteen traders set up I spent some time, and money, with Tip Curtis. He told me that this was his last year there. He also said that he only saw thirty names on the shooters list. He had some beautiful rifles that he built for sale at what I thought were good prices.

 

[innocent bystander]

Howdy, my wife and I are headed down to check out the traders on Saturday. Sounds like the shooter turnout is not too good. Do you think the traders will still be there on Saturday or will they pack up early and leave? One of the things my wife might be looking for would be a flintlock rifle.

 

[akapennypincher]

I drove down this morning. There were about a dozen or fourteen traders set up I spent some time, and money, with Tip Curtis. He told me that this was his last year there. He also said that he only saw thirty names on the shooters list. He had some beautiful rifles that he built for sale at what I thought were good prices.

Well I am kind of surprised Tip came back as last year he said he was not coming again. But I will stop by Saturday and visit him.

30 is pitiful number but by Saturday there will be a few more I would assume.

This is The NMLRA's Western/Winter Shoot number 25, just like last week was SASS's Winter Ranges 25th Annaversery Shoot. The Cowboys had over 800 Shooters, plus an additional 150 mounted shooters.

Anyway thanks for the report, the good news is Tip came and hopefully stay until Saturday afternoon.

 

[akapennypincher]

Well I made it to Ben Avery by 1030 this am just to see Tip Cutris droping the last few stakes in his tent down. Apprently he had such a dismal week he started packing up last night.

After saying hello, and mentioning you saying you were not coming back last year. Tip confessed he & Smitty of Smitty Engraving decided that because it being Winter National 25th. Annaversery they would give it one last try.

Apprently Tip sold a couple of Rifles in the White, so parts, but it was a dismal week. Not like 15-18 years ago when people were standing on line to give him money, get questions answered, or seeking advise what they needed to make some work, or what part they need buy.

Apprently the shooter count was up to 130ish today. Now a great count. Traders were like 14 or 15 total. You could have fire a machine gun down trader row, hitting no one.

Did run into Zonie aka Jim from the Forum with one of his flintlocks he has build.

Last stoop was the Primitive range where there we three shooter, not very useful interesting.

Weather was nice, cloudy, no wind, good day in Arizona.

 

[Zonie]

It was good to see you akapennypincher.
Sorry if I missed anyone else that was there.

As akapennypincher said, not much happening there today (Saturday).

I counted 13 vendors (not counting Tip because by 10:30 he was pulling out).

Of those 13 vendors, one of them was selling hot sandwiches so there were really only 12 there selling cloths, books and a few guns.

It's a real shame that the NMLRA doesn't publicize the event in the Phoenix newspaper. They haven't for years.

There are hundreds if not thousands of people here who do shoot muzzleloaders and I suspect a lot more people that would be interested if they only knew the event was going on.
(Phoenix has a population of over 1.5 million.)

 

[smo]

Is there a reason it's not publicized by the NMLRA? Has anyone contacted them to ask why. Don't they publicize all the other NMLRA shoots ?

 

[Zonie]

They do advertise it in their MUZZLE BLASTS magazine but only the members get to see that.

I have no idea of what their stance on advertising and supporting the vendors and the event publicly is.

A number of years ago after noticing the crowds and vendors were decreasing in number, I contacted the then, NMLRA President via E-Mail and suggested they need to tell the people in the Phoenix area about the event to bring out people who would support the vendors and the NMLRA.

He basically said they would consider what could be done.
The following year, nothing was done.

The next year, I ran an ad in the Arizona Republic giving a brief description of what was happening, where and when.
As I did this at my own expense, it was a very small ad in the GUNS FOR SALE section and it only ran for two days.

I couldn't see that it had any effect on the number of people at Traders Row that year and without the NMLRA paying for larger, more noticeable ad's, I gave up on the idea of my small ad being worth the amount of money it cost to run it.

It's sad to say it but 10-15 years ago there were a lot of vendors and people on Traders Row.
They even had a small grandstand set up so people could watch them fire their cannons blank charges.

Today, as akapennypincher suggested, one could have fired a cannon down the center of the row and it would have only hit the dirt embankment 1/4 mile away and not over 30 people (counting the vendors) would have seen it fire.

A few pictures of Traders Row 11 years ago:

 

[akapennypincher]

The answer to those who ask why has the NMLRA’s , Winter/Western Shoot has not become a world class event.

Can be be answered by the people in the NMLRA who are elected by the members, to represent the members. Those are the Board of Director who decide how, and were the organizations spend it budget. How the organization promotes itself & its events.

You can find all their Names, Phone Numbers, and E-mail addresses on the NMLRA Web-site. So bombard them with your questions, or call them. After all these are the people who you elected to represent your interests if you are still an NMLRA member.

One of them hangs out on this very forum under the users name of “DIXIE” He is Charles Burton, NMLRA Director. Morehead, KY. His e-mail is: [email protected]

If your the your e-mails go unanswered. Than you will known how important your question were, and how important the Western Shoot is.

One fact no one can deny is the NMLRA Winter, change to Western Shoot in 2000 started off strong. Back 17 or 18 years ago there were about 70 or 80 traders. I have heard at one point there were almost 500 Registered Shooters.

Ben Avery Campground was book full by December for the shoot, Primitive Camp was almost full every year.

But the shoot some where along its path hit some bumps. or something like the Titanic striking an Iceberg, and the slow sinking started.

Numbers of shooters went down, numbers of trader went down, and your Board of Director did nothing to save, or pump life back in the shoot.

You have to remember there TRADERS are in business to make money, some travel over 2,000 miles each way from their homes to Phoenix.

Take Top Curtis he pulls a big cab over camper on his truck, he drags a heavy trailing behind. So just his fuel, wear & tear on his vehicle is a major expense on a 4,000 mile round trip.

Than he has Trader space rental, camping fees to Ben Avery, and food & other miscellanies expenses until he get home.

The list is long of Traders who do not come to the Western any longer. Reason is simple they did not make the amount of money to justify all the work, the trip, and expenses to make it worth their while.

A few name that don’t come back are Strum Ruger Co. **(Major Sponsor)**, Caywood Guns, Dixie Gen Works, JP Gunstocks, Dunlap Woodcrafts (Wayne Dunlap), Tom Foxx, NorthStar West, TVM, Vern Davis, Log Cabin Shop, The Mountainman, and a few no longer are in business. But the list of those who quit coming is long than the few who do come.

Than a few years ago Don from Arkansas lost his FFL, and the guy who brought Real Black Powder for sale was not replaced. Don sold powder to everyone, not just NMLRA Members. So he was flooded with customer, because the black power cartridge shooters, cowboy shooter, rein actors, and canon shooter came to the event to buy powder.

Did the NMLRA BOD look for a replacement for Don like Coonies Black Powder Sales from NM? Apparently not, and I am sure Coonies Black Powder Sales could have filled Dons spot, and love all the business.

Then there use to be an Arizona Territorial Shoot before the Western, but that ended when the local club apparently got tired of doing all the work, and the profit went to Friendship.

This subject has been beat to death, and as I said if you are an interested party, NMLRA Member. Contact the people you elected to the NMLRA Board of Directors. As if they do not have the answer no one does.

Like I said last week was a better week for black powder shooting, as the SASS Shooter in larger numbers each years are loading their cartridges with black, switching to cap & ball revolvers, as it is more traditional.

Winter Range had over 800 Shooters, and more want to come but there was no space. Over 150 mounted shooter.

Recall back in about 1999, or 2000 some one said SASS was a passing fad. Well the fad is not passing, and a lot of ex-NMLRA Member are now SASS Members.

Maybe the flash in the pan that is flickering out is the NMLRA not SASS.

BTW Both had 25th Anniversary Shoots in 2016.

 

[innocent bystander]

My wife and I have just returned from Phoenix where we went to Traders’ Row on Saturday afternoon.

Concerning the lack of participation at the Western Shoot, I’d like to add a comment. I was a member of the NMLRA back in the late 70’s when I lived in Missouri. Then I moved to Los Angeles and dropped the sport for many years. Recently, I began shooting muzzleloaders again and decided to get a family membership for myself and my wife, who also shoots muzzleloaders.

As part of the membership, we get Muzzle Blasts and we had a lot of anticipation waiting to receive our first issue. So, the first issue had almost nothing about any shoots west of the Mississippi, very few articles on plains style rifles and almost all, if not all, of the hunting stories came from the eastern part of our country. Well, what the heck, we figured that the next issue would have something about the West and Southwest areas. Nada. This went on for a full year, almost nothing about the West, very little about the plains era of frontstuffers. Basically, the last few months I received the magazine, it went straight from the mailbox to the pile of magazines I had already read. Now, I reupped my membership since I thought it was the right thing to do, but to be honest, I don’t know if I’ll renew for another year if this year is like last year.

It appears to me that the shooters in the West are being ignored. This probably affects the attendance of the shoot. As to whether this is the cause of the shooters, I can’t say. Perhaps the articles on western shoots are not forthcoming, perhaps there aren’t many muzzleloader shooters in the West in the first place. Maybe it’s just that most of the history of the muzzleloader era was made east of the Colorado and there just aren't any activities happening in the West. I don’t know. But the bottom line is that if the shooters are ignored in the West, then there’s no incentive to show up for the Western Shoot.

 

[akapennypincher]

Your observation about the Muzzle Blast are on the mark as I picked up a few when I went to the registration area last week, as there were a couple of back issues available.

I would ad Muzzle Blast is boring, repetitive, and if you have about 5 years worth of issues you will find they are like a small country radio station playing the same songs over and over again.

One of the problem with the “Blast” it is not what those in journalism would call a NOT news stand quality publication because of narrow focus. It would never earn a sport at Barns & Noble on their rack for sale.

Now your observation about the NMLRA’s focus being “east” maybe be because if you look at where the majority of the BOD lives, it is east of the Mississippi.

I know I go to most of the gun show in Phoenix, and never saw an NMLRA presence at any. Including the big Cross roads Show in December that is a 3 day Small Arms Review Show that draws people from all over the USA to Phoenix.

I know the NMLRA has Field Representative in most of the Western states, you would think they would make a point to get a table at local gun shows, and promote the NMLRA big out West Shoot.

I know years back there were a couple of guy up in Las Vegas who had a shop, build really nice flintlocks, and there were running month shoot out side of Las Vegas. Forget their names, but they use to come down and set up on Traders Row, but they disappeared 7 or 8 years ago, and I have not seen any of them at recent Western events.

 

[innocent bystander]

That was probably Ray's Beaver Bag. He's been out of business for maybe 10-12 years. There is a muzzleloading club here, the Spring Mountain Free Trappers. They hold a ronny in November and a few people show up. I've been to a couple of their shoots and plan to attend more. But just as you say, we have gun shows here in Vegas about once a month and there is never a presence at any of them.

 

[akapennypincher]

That was probably Ray's Beaver Bag. He's been out of business for maybe 10-12 years. There is a muzzleloading club here, the Spring Mountain Free Trappers. They hold a ronny in November and a few people show up. I've been to a couple of their shoots and plan to attend more. But just as you say, we have gun shows here in Vegas about once a month and there is never a presence at any of them.

Time flies when you get old, could be 10 years. Ray's Beaver Bag could be the name, I recall a short, fat little guy who went by Grumpy manning thre tent on trader row. I bought a primitive fire starting kit off them, and lost it on one of my wondering around the forests of Northern AZ.

But like I said there were two guys who apprently had some indirect affailation with Ray's Beaver Bag that made real nice, fancy flintlock long rifles.

Well there are also like I said a couple of club in the San Diego,CA area. They use to also hold rondevous in the mountains to the east of San Dogtown.

There was a guy Saturday who was a RO on the Primitive Range, he always is at the Western working as a RO on the Primitive Range. He is from the San Diego area, and always says when you coming over to California. I replied made my last trip to bury my dad, and no more Cali for me. But like I said they do have a couple of active ML clubs in the San Dogtown area.

 

[qtrhrs7]

Glad that Tip will be back next year! Smitty does some wonderful engraving. He brought some items over to Tips tent and I just drooled.

 

[akapennypincher]

Glad that Tip will be back next year! Smitty does some wonderful engraving. He brought some items over to Tips tent and I just drooled.

You misread neither WILL BE BACK AGAIN, they are done that is what both said. The reason they gave it a last try was it was number 25, and they thought it would be well attended, and it was not. Sorry for the confusion.

 

[FishDFly]

“He told me that this was his last year there, that is his standard statement each year.”

Tip cannot count.

My wife buys pottery each year and the vendor said the cowboy action was way down from previous years. He and most vendors do not break even. Most of the line shooters bring all they need to shoot for a week, the vendors who are there offer nothing for a line shooter. Tip has offended the majority of folks at Friendship. Tip was selling caps at $100/1000 last year in Phoenix.

I tried 3 times to buy a rifle from him, still have my money, he would not wait on me.

Shooter numbers are down, health issues are taking a toll.

I will not find fault with the NMLRA, it serves no purpose.

The weather was as nice as a person could wish for.

Shortly after we checked into the motel my wife started having an allergic reaction. Next morning she woke me a 5A.M and said she had to go to an urgent care. I took her to the new hospital south of Ben Avery on I-17 which has an ER,, that is a very fine facility.

 

[akapennypincher]

Well I don’t want to burt your fabrication of the truth Richard, but if you Goggled “Winter Range”, that hit the NEWS tab. You would find many local Arizona Newspapers gave the Winter Range INK.

Not bad for something that almost 20 years an NMLRA Director guy told me something like SASS is just a passing fad.

You will find a couple of articles I linked & printed out verbatim That Arizona NEWSPAPERS ran on the Winter Range.


http://www.willcoxrangenews.com/news/article_f3ed549a-d671-11e5-a8ed-232c2579ef66.html


PHOENIX ”” For those who harken back to the days of jingling spurs, the smell of authentic chuck-wagon cooking, and cowboys vying to see who’s the quickest on the trigger, then circle Feb. 22-27 on your calendar.

That’s when Winter Range rides into town, transforming the Ben Avery Shooting Facility into a festive scene from the "Old West" where more than 1,000 competitors from around the world will take part in the 25th annual Single Action Shooting Society’s national championship of Cowboy Action Shooting.

Cowboy Action Shooting is one of the nation’s fastest-growing shooting sports and requires competitors to take their best shots with single-action revolvers, lever-action rifles and period shotguns. Competitors also must adopt a shooting alias suitable to a character or profession of the late 19th century, a Western movie star or an appropriate character from fiction -- names like “Mudflat Mike,” “Goldie Jade” and “May B. Shecann” -- and then dress in costume accordingly.

Winter Range will feature period militaria, exhibitions of Western skills and crafts, a fast-draw competition, and vendors purveying period clothing, hats and wigs, antiques, reproductions and more. There also will be roaming balladeers, trick horses and a visit from Wyatt Earp, the great grand-nephew of his namesake. Earp will give a presentation about the life and times of Doc Holliday at 2 p.m. Feb. 27. That will be followed by tales of Arizona’s past at 2:30 p.m., as told by local author, artist and historian Bob Boze Bell.

A three-day mounted shooting event is expected to draw 100-plus competitors mounted on horses participating in their own arena Feb. 26-28.

A variety of food services will be available, including chuck-wagon cooking, hot dogs, funnel cakes and ice cream. Admission to Winter Range is free (parking is $5). BASF is located on Carefree Highway, west of Interstate 17. For more information, visit www.winterrange.com.”

 

[akapennypincher]

He's another one Richard.
http://www.yourwestvalley.com/entertainment/article_6508f84c-cf78-11e5-83e0-7315290e1f05.html

"Posted: Tuesday, February 9, 2016 6:30 pm

Winter Range celebrates Silver Jubilee STAFF REPORT Your West Valley

The largest Western style encampment in the world will return to Phoenix on Feb. 22 and continue until Feb. 27 attracting participants from around the world.

Winter Range will celebrate its Silver Jubilee match and draw over 1,000 competitors from most of the 50 states and as many as 15 foreign countries.

It will take place at the Ben Avery Shooting Range, just off Carefree Highway, west of Interstate 17.

These competitors, both male and female ranging in age from 12 to over 80 years, will compete in over 35 categories dictated by age and competitive style.

Cowboy Action Shooting, one of the fastest growing shooting sports in America, requires that contestants compete with firearms typical of those used in the taming of the Old West: single action revolvers, lever action rifles and period shotguns.

Participants must also adopt a shooting alias appropriate to a character or profession of the late 19th century, a Hollywood Western star or an appropriate character from fiction and then costume themselves accordingly.

In addition to the competitive events, Winter Range 2016 will feature displays of period militaria, exhibitions of Western skills and crafts, a fast draw competition and nearly 100 vendors purveying everything from period clothing, hats and wigs to antiques and reproductions.

Entertainment will be readily available in the form of a number of roaming balladeers, trick roping, trick horses and various other forms of cowboy entertainment.

To begin each wave of competition on Feb. 25, a fly-by of vintage military aircraft will take place at 7:55 a.m., 10:55 a.m. and 1:55 p.m. Winter Range Board members Blackjack Zak and Lt. Col. Scratch, both veteran military pilots, will be leading two of the flights.

Also this year on Feb. 27 starting at noon, two great storytellers will perform in the Main Tent. Wyatt Earp, the great grand-nephew of his namesake, will be giving a special stage presentation on Doc Holliday reminiscing about his amazing life and times.

At 2:30 p.m., Bob Boze Bell, CEO and executive editor of True West Magazine and author of nine books on Old West characters, will regale the audience with stories of the Old West.

This year the Cowboy Mounted Shooting Association will have an exciting two-day mounted shooting event expected to draw over 100 competitors mounted on horses participating in their own arena on Feb. 27 and 28.

A variety of food services are also available from authentic chuck wagon cooking to hot dogs, funnel cakes and ice cream. Winter Range is truly an exciting and educational event for the entire family.

Admission is free with a $5 per car load charge for parking.

For further information, go to www.winterrange.com."


BTW being fair Richard I also Goggled NMLRA, NMLRA Winter National, NMLRA Western National Shoot, that hit the NEWS tab. You know what my search results showed? ......................NOTHING.

Might want to ask your BOD Members the NMLRA Member how come SASS can get media coverage for their Silver Anniversary Event, and the NMLRA Event did not even show up in a Google News Search?

Too bad about Tip Curtis not wanting your money for a rifle, what did you do offer him half of his asking price? I would tell you no thanks also.

I have had dealing with Tip for over 15 years, he is a very knowledge Trader. He always has been nice to deal with, willing to spend time, with customers.

Back when there were large number of people coming to Traders Row people would line up to buy from Tip. It was like when the local Bagel shop open, everyone want hot fresh bagels.

Now the bagel shop opened (Tips Tent), and few want in during the day. Might leave a bad taste in the bakers mouth who drove 2,000 miles to open his shop.

 

[FishDFly]

Well I don’t want to burt your fabrication of the truth Richard, but if you Goggled “Winter Range”, that hit the NEWS tab. You would find many local Arizona Newspapers gave the Winter Range INK.

Not bad for something that almost 20 years an NMLRA Director guy told me something like SASS is just a passing fad.

You will find a couple of articles I linked & printed out verbatim That Arizona NEWSPAPERS ran on the Winter Range.




Only reported what one vendor reported after he spent a week there, guess he lied, gained him a lot.