Anyone here have experience with Military Heritage .com ML's?

[FlinterNick]

My group invested in a bulk purchase of 1728/46 Charlevilles form Loyalist Arms, these are actually .... Not too bad in my opinion. At first glance they look pretty good however once you start to hold it, you can very quickly tell the difference.

A 1728 Charleville, original or reproduction by the Rifle Shoppe weights in at around 8lbs - 9lbs with a bayonet. Very light gun with sleek characteristics. The forearm stock is very light and thin but sturdy. The barrel bands are not too thick. The lock is the largest part other than the barrel. The barrel on a Rifle Shoppe 1728 weights around 3.5 - 4 1/4 lbs at 46 7/8 inches long .72 caliber. Its very long and is a slender taper.

Compared to the Loyalist Arms 1728 Charleville.

Total weight is around 12-14 lbs depending on the stock. The barrel is extremely thick from breech to muzzle at .6855 caliber. The bands are much thicker than the originals. The Lock is actually smaller than the Rifle Shoppe lock by 1/4 of an inch in the rear section and the lock is much less graceful in styling. Springs are heavy and need to be taken down slightly or with an inside or outside bevel.
Some of loyalists guns of this type are sold as non-operational or can only fire blanks mostly because of how the gun is breached, Guns are over polished to 2,000 - 5,000 grit. Most originals were polished up to 600 - 1000 and were hand polished not buffed with a turning wheel mechanism.

I can honestly say that an 18th century french soldier would have discarded the heavier Charleville because the french really liked their muskets light.

 

[tenngun]

But.....
I bet there were few French soldiers that would have tipped the scale over a hundred and forty pounds, or sixty kilos as he’s French, and none to many who could look over my shoulder.
How do you find some one today in our camps? It’s easy just go look for the fat guy with a beard in the white tent.... whooops.
A seven pound musket is almost 7/100 of 140 pounds.about the same relation ship as a twelve pound gun to an,er,ah, gros ventre boy on line today.

 

[Black Jack]

I was stationed in San Diego and used to visit a good sized all black powder shop called Patch and ball, LA had several shops that were all BP or had large BP sections.

I remember the Patch and Ball from when I was stationed in San Diego around '70-'74. He had all things Thompson Center and was a really nice guy. Black powder was an exciting new thing for me at that time. I was saddened to hear he passed away at an untimely age.

 

[FlinterNick]

But.....
I bet there were few French soldiers that would have tipped the scale over a hundred and forty pounds, or sixty kilos as he’s French, and none to many who could look over my shoulder.
How do you find some one today in our camps? It’s easy just go look for the fat guy with a beard in the white tent.... whooops.
A seven pound musket is almost 7/100 of 140 pounds.about the same relation ship as a twelve pound gun to an,er,ah, gros ventre boy on line today.

I don’t think original Charlevilles were lighter because french soldiers were slightly smaller than humans today, I don’t think the average french soldier was also 140 lbs.

Original French Charleville’s were lighter for a few reasons, cost of production mostly. The average french musket of the 1728/46 pattern cost around $10 - $15 to produce, this was relatively cheaper than the British Brown Bess. The french fielded more soldiers on mainland Europe so cost was a major dilemma.

I honestly don’t think the size of the solider was really considered, the British Brown Bess long land 1742 pattern weighed around 11 lbs, the 1756 around 12 lbs. Brown Bess’s were considered light arms of their time.

When the 1728’s and 1746’s proved to be too delicate, especially in the wrist and barrel the french beefed up the gun by 2-3 lbs with the 1754 and later 1763 patterns with much of that weight being in the barrels.

The Indian made arms are heavy because that’s what they think the public prefers. Loyalist arms actually has to shave down the weight of the guns by 1-2 lbs by sliming the stocks as much as they can. Military heritage usually leaves their guns in an untouched state .

If French 1728/46 Charlevilles were made to the modern reproduction specifications by Pedersoli or Indian manufactures the french would have needed to make around 100,00-200,000 of them with unbearable costs.

 

[tenngun]

I used the hundred and forty pounds based on Whily or Whille who put out an average for Civil War soldiers at about 5,8” and one forty.
I know when ever I see original uniforms well up to the Second World War I’m always struck by how small they are.
I was to Saint Louis for a traveling display of Catherine the great. There were aristocratic military uniforms set up. Big barrel chested coats and ahm er shall we say very slim legs.
And no I don’t think the French government or any government then gave a fig about how much of a burden the gun would be. However I do think they cared how their troops looked. A nice slim musket does look jaunty.
Only pointing out here a twelve pound musket is not a super heavy burden for chiefly proportions of today’s average front stuffers compared to eighteenth century lower classes.

 

[nhmoose]

Gee Lyman had a big recall for faulty breech plugs but don't count cause the were made in Europe and proofed by a government proof house not India.

Guns can be dangerous we all know it. And what proofing is done for all American made guns? NONE.

I will judge a gun myself after looking it over and taking it apart. All my firearms have been apart for inspection by myself and unless they are reasonably safe to fire I would not fire them.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

My question regarding touch holes is; whats the difference with India guns that have the touch hole drilled, vs those that you would have to drill yourself? Isnt the metal of the same questionable origin either way?

No it's not "questionable" metal. In fact they are often from manufactured tubing that is made to withstand much higher pressures than black powder will exert.
I don't drill the touch hole on a finished gun, Indian or otherwise, as in my state I am then converting a non-firing replica into a muzzle loader, so then I am the one responsible if there is some accident with it, beyond my having been stupid and shot something that I shouldn't. Even if I turn around and sell it to another reenactor, I'm the guy that "converted" it.

If someone wants to buy Indian made products thats fine with them. For me, nothing is going to convince me that anything made in India is worth its salt.

Are these guns meant to be converted into shootable firearms, or are they built as wall hangers that people have just decided to work them to get them to shoot? I dont think Id be inclined to try to get a wall hanger to shoot.

Seems like a big risk to me, and I dont trust anything made in India. They are the modern day Made in Taiwan. Id trust modern Made in Taiwan products more than I would anthing Made in India.

Yeah they are a nuclear nation, (we didn't give them the nukes btw) and we import a bunch of their scientists and engineers, because we pay better, but heck, they know nothing......

One person has pointed out that IF the companies in India ship out the guns drilled, they must then pay large fees as in India they have no legal difference between what we classify as a firearm and antique firearm. Another reason why MH doesn't drill the holes is they do a large amount of business in Europe. European countries most often require a musket (made anywhere) with a touch hole drilled to be submitted to a proofing house. In fact we have at least one forum member who has done so with his India origin muskets (yes plural) and never had any problems. NOW IF a person simply wants to collect and display a replica musket from France or Germany or Britain, then buying one without the touch hole drilled avoids the extra hassle of having it proofed.

OH and...., I've seen this as the avatar for one of our forum members, though his is a bit different...,

I'm still waiting, too...

LD

 

[FlinterNick]

No it's not "questionable" metal. In fact they are often from manufactured tubing that is made to withstand much higher pressures than black powder will exert.
I don't drill the touch hole on a finished gun, Indian or otherwise, as in my state I am then converting a non-firing replica into a muzzle loader, so then I am the one responsible if there is some accident with it, beyond my having been stupid and shot something that I shouldn't. Even if I turn around and sell it to another reenactor, I'm the guy that "converted" it.



Yeah they are a nuclear nation, (we didn't give them the nukes btw) and we import a bunch of their scientists and engineers, because we pay better, but heck, they know nothing......

One person has pointed out that IF the companies in India ship out the guns drilled, they must then pay large fees as in India they have no legal difference between what we classify as a firearm and antique firearm. Another reason why MH doesn't drill the holes is they do a large amount of business in Europe. European countries most often require a musket (made anywhere) with a touch hole drilled to be submitted to a proofing house. In fact we have at least one forum member who has done so with his India origin muskets (yes plural) and never had any problems. NOW IF a person simply wants to collect and display a replica musket from France or Germany or Britain, then buying one without the touch hole drilled avoids the extra hassle of having it proofed.

OH and...., I've seen this as the avatar for one of our forum members, though his is a bit different...,

View attachment 52346

I'm still waiting, too...

LD

its not so much waiting for the musket to explode but waiting for the gung-ho reinactor to load it with 120 grains of 3F. Guns don’t load themselves lol.

 

[Leadball loader]

If you build a TOtW kit or any kit which requires drilling the vent you are doing the same action for the same reason , making a functioning flintlock firearm. You are converting a manufactured part to shooting condition and are responsible for making a usable gun.
You are equally responsible simply selling or trading any functional muzzle loader period by that reasoning!!!
LBL

No it's not "questionable" metal. In fact they are often from manufactured tubing that is made to withstand much higher pressures than black powder will exert.
I don't drill the touch hole on a finished gun, Indian or otherwise, as in my state I am then converting a non-firing replica into a muzzle loader, so then I am the one responsible if there is some accident with it, beyond my having been stupid and shot something that I shouldn't. Even if I turn around and sell it to another reenactor, I'm the guy that "converted" it.

LBL

 

[Loyalist Dave]

You are equally responsible simply selling or trading any functional muzzle loader period by that reasoning!!

NOPE

When it comes drilled, and I resell it drilled, I've done no deliberate change to the product. I'm no more responsible than I would be with the legal sale of a used modern firearm, or a used car, or my house. NOW if I change the used car, extend the chassis, trick it out, and the new owner is driving it and it snaps in half, then I'm responsible. AND as with a house, IF I built the addition to the house, I have converted the original house to a new configuration, and say I did the wiring, although I'm not a certified electrician..., when it burns down due to faulty wiring that I did, then yes, there I'm legally responsible.

IF I build a muzzleloader, with the intent that it should fire, then yes, when I make it fire by doing the touch hole, I'm responsible for the build, even after I sell it. So yes a builder could be in difficulties under Civil Law were an accident to happen.

In this case, I would not have built the MH musket, but I would be converting it. MH is not looking over my shoulder, supervising the "conversion" so thus they have no way of knowing if the converting person [me] did it right. I'm not a certified gunsmith, either, just as in the example above with the house, I'm not a certified electrician. So then.....

LD

 

[FlinterNick]

If you build a TOtW kit or any kit which requires drilling the vent you are doing the same action for the same reason , making a functioning flintlock firearm. You are converting a manufactured part to shooting condition and are responsible for making a usable gun.
You are equally responsible simply selling or trading any functional muzzle loader period by that reasoning!!!
LBL


LBL

I think you’re splitting hairs here.

That’s like saying if I modify my Subaru and re-sell it I’m responsible .... naaa legal liability has its limits in the USA, you can by all means try to file a legal claim but the precedence is against you the moment you purchased the item you claim is defective.

 

[FlinterNick]

Drilling a vent hole isn’t rocket science. The work is in the placement of the hole in relation to the breech plug and pan which requires a caliber, marker or scribe to mark your locations.

If you don’t understand what a vent hole is and how its supposed to be drilled and you go ahead and take a hand drill and just drill a hole where ever you think it may need to go.... well that’s just dumb risk taking. You simply don’t need to take that risk to get it done right.

I don’t sell guns for a living, and I don’t build guns for others. I have sold my used muzzle loaders, most of which I didn’t build.

I had one Brown Bess recently built to almost complete failure by the supposed gunsmith. The vent hole was drilled about 1mm off because the gunsmith didn’t want to drill into the breech plug and channel vent the face. The result is a touchole that is completely inoperable and needed to be welded up by a barrel maker. This is real legal liability, selling workmanship as genuine when you really have no idea what you’re doing.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

That’s like saying if I modify my Subaru and re-sell it I’m responsible .... naaa legal liability has its limits in the USA,

TRUE, but again my point is did you change the [wallhanger, car, house] into something different by your actions? Did that change likely lead to the accident?
So you changed the Subaru with a paint job. Mechanically, you did no change, BUT if you installed a new brake master cylinder not originally made for the car, and you're not a certified mechanic, when the brakes fail as the new owner drives it home on day one.....,

In the case of a non-firing musket, no shooting accident would've occurred without the touch hole drilled...., that's the starting point.


LD

 

[tenngun]

its not so much waiting for the musket to explode but waiting for the gung-ho reinactor to load it with 120 grains of 3F. Guns don’t load themselves lol.

I’ll tell you what, there are about five loyalist arms I wouldn’t mind owning. You buy those for me and I’ll load them all with ball and a hundred and twenty grains of three f, if any one blows I’ll pay you three times the price for all five, otherwise I’ll thank you kindly for the guns

 

[FlinterNick]

I’ll tell you what, there are about five loyalist arms I wouldn’t mind owning. You buy those for me and I’ll load them all with ball and a hundred and twenty grains of three f, if any one blows I’ll pay you three times the price for all five, otherwise I’ll thank you kindly for the guns

Yea but you have to do it 30 times without cleaning the gun out for days a time like all of the historically accurate reinactors out there that want a nuclear muzzle flash with each round. Eventually you’ll have a Chernobyl.

 

[tenngun]

But isn’t that true for any gun?
I work in a trauma unit. I see a guy sans helmet who was riding a Yamaha, and he pulled out in front of truck. He is smashed flat.
When are people going to learn how dangerous Japanese bikes are?

 

[FlinterNick]

But isn’t that true for any gun?
I work in a trauma unit. I see a guy sans helmet who was riding a Yamaha, and he pulled out in front of truck. He is smashed flat.
When are people going to learn how dangerous Japanese bikes are?

Is it true to load a musket with 120 grains of 3F with 30 rounds and not clean out the gun, then shooting it again the next week ?

Lord I would hope not, I clean my guns obsessively after I use them with 60-80 grains of 2F shot or ball and if I don’t my wife will cut me up and down about the smell.

But i would say the leading cause of gun barrel cracks, bursts, explosions or otherwise meltdowns is from the owner’s lack of care and or negligence. Most of which involves failure to maintain the gun. I think Indian made guns could lend themselves to more risk in this department, as I’ve seen two that have mostly because the additional hazards placed on the gun by the user mixed with poor workmanship .... setup the bad situation.

 

[ColonialRifleSmith]

I ahve owned several , never had one blow up. They have all functioned fine after some minor to significant tinkering. Problems have ranged from poorly located screw holes causing improper lock geometrty, weak mainspring and all ahve required rehardening. I had a charleville that didnt even make it through one reenacting event before the frizzen went soft! Do they shoot...yup, are they affordable....yup however bear in mind that u may get a great gun that will give you years of service. Or you may get a gun for 700 that is going to require several hundred more dollars to get it working properly..... if you look around i am sure you can find a quality built used gun for a modest price increase that will serve you far better. Many have bought them , many have said "i should have bought something else". The choice however is yours to make. If you are looking I can point you in the direction of a man who builds very nice guns very reasonable priced and he may have somehting youd like .... and it would be far ahead and better than anything you would find from INDIA. also, keep in mind that if parts break ( and they do) you will not be able to get anything for an india made gun as they are basicly handmade and one off productions. I have one hanging on t he wall with a broken lock.....I could spend $$ to fix it or have a modern lock fit to it....but spending 500$ to make a $450 gun functional just isnt worth it. If it had a locally made lock.....i could just buy a small part and be done .... so remember they are enticing cuz theyre xcheap, but remember the numerous downfalls to them....