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Anyone see Tradition's new rifle?
- Thread starter lakota
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Lakota,
It just strikes me as insulting that a company that now make a rifle with "Similar" stock architecture and furniture to a Hawken rifle is just cause to inflate the price. Why not just drop the "Plains Rifle" part of the line and produce and sell the Hawken for the price of the "Plains Rifle" and watch the customers line up.
Jay
It just strikes me as insulting that a company that now make a rifle with "Similar" stock architecture and furniture to a Hawken rifle is just cause to inflate the price. Why not just drop the "Plains Rifle" part of the line and produce and sell the Hawken for the price of the "Plains Rifle" and watch the customers line up.
Jay
ranger:
I doubt that they would be willing to drop the Plains Rifle for the Hawken simply because IMO most people who buy a BP rifle want it for hunting. They don't give a rats A about Hawkens or History.
They are unwilling to carry a long heavy gun thru the woods when there is a shorter lighter rifle that will shoot well.
That many of us feel the true Hawken rifle is something we would want is fine but those who want something light and handy outnumber us.
IMO the only thing that keeps the GPR up at the top of the heap is the fact that its accuracy is exceptional and people learn of this thru sites like the Muzzleloading Forum.
I doubt that they would be willing to drop the Plains Rifle for the Hawken simply because IMO most people who buy a BP rifle want it for hunting. They don't give a rats A about Hawkens or History.
They are unwilling to carry a long heavy gun thru the woods when there is a shorter lighter rifle that will shoot well.
That many of us feel the true Hawken rifle is something we would want is fine but those who want something light and handy outnumber us.
IMO the only thing that keeps the GPR up at the top of the heap is the fact that its accuracy is exceptional and people learn of this thru sites like the Muzzleloading Forum.
I would have to agree that the price is pretty steep.As was said, a little more and you could have a custom gun. Theres no doubt that the A&H were good guns , but certainly not cheap as production guns. I am glad to see any new traditional side-lock style guns being made available.Also, the suggested retail is always higher than what you will pay, if you shop around.
50cal.cliff
58 Cal.
I hesitate to open this door but what the heck. I love this forum but there is a two points of view on all things!
On this forum it always comes down to traditional and non traditional and by that I do mean PC and non-PC.
The first thing that comes out in one of these discussions is that it doesn't look right. It's close but maybe that's not good enough for some! But guys we are all after the same thing,"traditional muzzleloading"! If you weren't you be out there shooting on of those new fangled blanety :redface: blank inlines and this forum would be of no intrest to you.
My first rifle was a Traditions, the St. Louis Hawken, it was a kit. It allowed me to do what I had wanted to do for years. Get back to something I had tried 20+years before and that was, "traditional hunting/shooting"!
I live on a limited income since I got messed up 12 years ago, and there was no way I could afford to go with a higher priced rifle let alone a custom!
Now I will grant you from my experience my Traditons kit lacked alot of fit and some finsh. But through this forum and asking for and getting good advice I managed to end up with a fairly decent rifle. It is more like a custom in some aspects because I basically reshaped the entire stock, refit some of the hardware, and built some parts of my own. All things learned and furthered by this forum. At the end of the day, when I got through the Traditions rifle turned out to be a good shooter, if I do my part it will do it's part!
In the near future I am going to be starting my second rifle another kit. I just purchased a Lyman GPR and I think it's going to be a dandy! Had I not took a chance on a "lesser quality" gun to get my foot in the door, at a price I could afford, I probablly would not be looking at building my second rifle. Who knows my next one may be a total custom reproduction with the absolute best barrel and furniture that money can buy. That dosen't mean it will make me a better shot, just more PC!
The point I am trying to make here gentlemen is this. Even in traditional muzzleloading we have our purists, who would not be caught dead with anything less than an accurate reproduction/custom of an origional rifle, and more power to them if they can afford to go that route.
On the other hand you have those who have an intrest for the traditonal but, for one reason or another either can't or are unwilling too pay the extra buck for the high priced custom/reproduction.
Is there that much difference in the two groups? Absolutely not! They both love tradional muzzleloading, one probably just tends to have the money and resources to pursue this love of in a more PC manner.
But when you decide to do this kind of analagy you have created two groups and gentlemen two small groups that fight and bicker all the time have far less power than one large group who will stand together.
In this day and time this kind of thinking is counterproductive. We are fighting daily to maintain are rights as citisens of the USA. Not just against a foreign enemy but, those libaralist right here in our country who constantly fight to take away your rights!
It is much more productive for these two groups to realize, they are by far more alike than different!!
As for the rifle, it may not be PC but, its a big step closer than say CVA's new "Electra".
To make a true run at the market at that price will require that, Traditions to make a significant improvement in quailty production. Too me that means they will have to fit in between the Lyman GPR and say the Pendersoli Rocky Mountain Hawken and I have doubts of them be able to pull that off! If they are willing to do this then they might just have themselves a winner, that would put them back in the running for a piece of the American market again.
Having said all that, I would much rather see some one walk out on the range with one of these in his or her hand than an inline any day. At least I know there heart is in the right place!!!!!!!
:2
On this forum it always comes down to traditional and non traditional and by that I do mean PC and non-PC.
The first thing that comes out in one of these discussions is that it doesn't look right. It's close but maybe that's not good enough for some! But guys we are all after the same thing,"traditional muzzleloading"! If you weren't you be out there shooting on of those new fangled blanety :redface: blank inlines and this forum would be of no intrest to you.
My first rifle was a Traditions, the St. Louis Hawken, it was a kit. It allowed me to do what I had wanted to do for years. Get back to something I had tried 20+years before and that was, "traditional hunting/shooting"!
I live on a limited income since I got messed up 12 years ago, and there was no way I could afford to go with a higher priced rifle let alone a custom!
Now I will grant you from my experience my Traditons kit lacked alot of fit and some finsh. But through this forum and asking for and getting good advice I managed to end up with a fairly decent rifle. It is more like a custom in some aspects because I basically reshaped the entire stock, refit some of the hardware, and built some parts of my own. All things learned and furthered by this forum. At the end of the day, when I got through the Traditions rifle turned out to be a good shooter, if I do my part it will do it's part!
In the near future I am going to be starting my second rifle another kit. I just purchased a Lyman GPR and I think it's going to be a dandy! Had I not took a chance on a "lesser quality" gun to get my foot in the door, at a price I could afford, I probablly would not be looking at building my second rifle. Who knows my next one may be a total custom reproduction with the absolute best barrel and furniture that money can buy. That dosen't mean it will make me a better shot, just more PC!
The point I am trying to make here gentlemen is this. Even in traditional muzzleloading we have our purists, who would not be caught dead with anything less than an accurate reproduction/custom of an origional rifle, and more power to them if they can afford to go that route.
On the other hand you have those who have an intrest for the traditonal but, for one reason or another either can't or are unwilling too pay the extra buck for the high priced custom/reproduction.
Is there that much difference in the two groups? Absolutely not! They both love tradional muzzleloading, one probably just tends to have the money and resources to pursue this love of in a more PC manner.
But when you decide to do this kind of analagy you have created two groups and gentlemen two small groups that fight and bicker all the time have far less power than one large group who will stand together.
In this day and time this kind of thinking is counterproductive. We are fighting daily to maintain are rights as citisens of the USA. Not just against a foreign enemy but, those libaralist right here in our country who constantly fight to take away your rights!
It is much more productive for these two groups to realize, they are by far more alike than different!!
As for the rifle, it may not be PC but, its a big step closer than say CVA's new "Electra".
To make a true run at the market at that price will require that, Traditions to make a significant improvement in quailty production. Too me that means they will have to fit in between the Lyman GPR and say the Pendersoli Rocky Mountain Hawken and I have doubts of them be able to pull that off! If they are willing to do this then they might just have themselves a winner, that would put them back in the running for a piece of the American market again.
Having said all that, I would much rather see some one walk out on the range with one of these in his or her hand than an inline any day. At least I know there heart is in the right place!!!!!!!
:2
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alot of great points were made with that 2 cents.
"The point I am trying to make here gentlemen is this. Even in traditional muzzleloading we have our purists, who would not be caught dead with anything less than an accurate reproduction/custom of an origional rifle, and more power to them if they can afford to go that route.
On the other hand you have those who have an intrest for the traditonal but, for one reason or another either can't or are unwilling too pay the extra buck for the high priced custom/reproduction"
Well said, I think most of the production guns are accepted as traditional style guns, and those who use them are not shunned, we do however need to look at the "traditional" concept as a sum of the parts not just where the lock is positioned on the gun, you can take any traditional gun be it production or from TOTW parts and put modern high tech peeps or scope and shoot modern design bullets and have a 150-200 yds gun which is only different from the #@*& lines in the material used on the stock and the position of the lock/ignition mechanism, hopefull many more will enter the world of traditional ML shooting/hunting with production guns with open sights( the modern adjustable type are easily replace by a dove tailed type but as a starter the factory sights are usually accepted)and PRB this combination adds up to a traditional outfit, and quite affordable, but when we start modernizing the various components we start having something closer and closer to the "other" type of gun, let's hope someone will always offer an entry level ML that retains enouhgh of the traits of the guns of the past to be "traditional"
On the other hand you have those who have an intrest for the traditonal but, for one reason or another either can't or are unwilling too pay the extra buck for the high priced custom/reproduction"
Well said, I think most of the production guns are accepted as traditional style guns, and those who use them are not shunned, we do however need to look at the "traditional" concept as a sum of the parts not just where the lock is positioned on the gun, you can take any traditional gun be it production or from TOTW parts and put modern high tech peeps or scope and shoot modern design bullets and have a 150-200 yds gun which is only different from the #@*& lines in the material used on the stock and the position of the lock/ignition mechanism, hopefull many more will enter the world of traditional ML shooting/hunting with production guns with open sights( the modern adjustable type are easily replace by a dove tailed type but as a starter the factory sights are usually accepted)and PRB this combination adds up to a traditional outfit, and quite affordable, but when we start modernizing the various components we start having something closer and closer to the "other" type of gun, let's hope someone will always offer an entry level ML that retains enouhgh of the traits of the guns of the past to be "traditional"
50cal.cliff said:
Couldn't have said it better...but anymore I rarely challenge the abuse that is fairly often given to the T/C Hawken line...I just go enjoy mine.
The worst of those who do it the most often have become more crafty however...their comments usually include references like:
"...understanding that we agreed to accept T/C Hawkns as traditional, that said, they're really not traditional of course, in the true traditional sense, of the traditional word, from the traditional muzzleloading era..."...etc, etc, etc, etc.... :grin:
I've since learned that the most vocal are just insecure and to feel comfortable they have to put down others choices...for the most part they're harmless and learning to ignore them is best.
But you said a mouthful just now and I'm glad you did...it's been a while since the last time the playing field got leveled...
:hatsoff:
"But you said a mouthful just now and I'm glad you did...it's been a while since the last time the playing field got leveled...'
Level, when has the field been leveled, we are always tripping over thos blasted, lumpy modern conicals that are strewn about the forum..
"On this forum it always comes down to traditional and non traditional and by that I do mean PC and non-PC"
I think we can have situations were somethigs can be traditional but not PC, the traditional classification may be a bit broader and non-specific with some things whereas the PC is pretty much a locked on time, place, sensitive definition, which is good as this allows a softer tone when talking about traditional guns, traditional can be looked at as a stepping stone toward the world of PC should one want to take that path, one must always look at the next step down the road and the cumulitve sum of all the aspects,issues and personal predujice whan sorting it all out for the purpose of hanging a label on something.One big thing to shoot for is to learn the difference and accept it for what it is and not try to force it somewhere it does not belong. I agree that it was an excellant post Cliff
Level, when has the field been leveled, we are always tripping over thos blasted, lumpy modern conicals that are strewn about the forum..
"On this forum it always comes down to traditional and non traditional and by that I do mean PC and non-PC"
I think we can have situations were somethigs can be traditional but not PC, the traditional classification may be a bit broader and non-specific with some things whereas the PC is pretty much a locked on time, place, sensitive definition, which is good as this allows a softer tone when talking about traditional guns, traditional can be looked at as a stepping stone toward the world of PC should one want to take that path, one must always look at the next step down the road and the cumulitve sum of all the aspects,issues and personal predujice whan sorting it all out for the purpose of hanging a label on something.One big thing to shoot for is to learn the difference and accept it for what it is and not try to force it somewhere it does not belong. I agree that it was an excellant post Cliff
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Back to the original topic....
here is what Traditions is trying to copy
EARLY .50 A&H with curley maple stock
aint she pretty? All furniture is factory browned. Produced in Weston Missouri. 1:66 twist
here is what Traditions is trying to copy
EARLY .50 A&H with curley maple stock
aint she pretty? All furniture is factory browned. Produced in Weston Missouri. 1:66 twist
50cal.cliff
58 Cal.
She is a a beaut Scalper. I did stay with the origional topic too, just got a bit long winded! :wink:
I would love to see a resurgance of the Traditional Muzzleloader by the US companies. Folks don't mind paying a hard earned buck for a quality product. It's when you try too dump somthing on them that is only American, because it is marketed here and in reality the quality is somewhat lacking.
I think that is where Traditoins will find themselves with this rifle, especially if they are building on parts that are no longer available. If they can keep it going long enough to eat up that inventory of parts, when they have too produce their own stock the quality issue will kill them.
I recently purchased my Lyman GPR through Midsouth Shooter Supply becuase, I could get it around $30.00 cheaper than Midway USA.
The next day I get an email from Midway offering their monthly specials and true to form not a one of those offers has anything to do with BP. Looking at the site I realized their was a place you email the president of the company,Larry Poterfield. It states it may not be him that actually replies.
I emailed them and told them they were consistantly $20- $30 higher than their nearest competitor Midsouth on alot of alike items, such as that GPR. I also asked how come none of their specials included anything to do with BP.
I stated that to me the "Traditonal Muzzleloaders" was where it was at! I told him now their is a challange, stated you got to know your self and your gun to do right with one of those.
To my surprise Larry Poterfield himself emailed me back. His responce was, I tried that when Browning went belly up, he said he had bought up their stock and basically he was glad when he finally sold out what he had!
And besides that craze is long since dead but, I will relay your message for some BP products on our specials to marketing!
I didn't know wheter to laugh or cry after reading that! I will say this though he is a major company president and an attitude like that is no help for any reasurgance for Traditional Muzzleloading in the market place!!!!
Oh and by the way don't let any of this make you think I don't like my little low entry Traditions rifle because if you have that opinion I will put it and myself up against anyone on any given day and if I am having a good day I will do OK!! :grin:
I would love to see a resurgance of the Traditional Muzzleloader by the US companies. Folks don't mind paying a hard earned buck for a quality product. It's when you try too dump somthing on them that is only American, because it is marketed here and in reality the quality is somewhat lacking.
I think that is where Traditoins will find themselves with this rifle, especially if they are building on parts that are no longer available. If they can keep it going long enough to eat up that inventory of parts, when they have too produce their own stock the quality issue will kill them.
I recently purchased my Lyman GPR through Midsouth Shooter Supply becuase, I could get it around $30.00 cheaper than Midway USA.
The next day I get an email from Midway offering their monthly specials and true to form not a one of those offers has anything to do with BP. Looking at the site I realized their was a place you email the president of the company,Larry Poterfield. It states it may not be him that actually replies.
I emailed them and told them they were consistantly $20- $30 higher than their nearest competitor Midsouth on alot of alike items, such as that GPR. I also asked how come none of their specials included anything to do with BP.
I stated that to me the "Traditonal Muzzleloaders" was where it was at! I told him now their is a challange, stated you got to know your self and your gun to do right with one of those.
To my surprise Larry Poterfield himself emailed me back. His responce was, I tried that when Browning went belly up, he said he had bought up their stock and basically he was glad when he finally sold out what he had!
And besides that craze is long since dead but, I will relay your message for some BP products on our specials to marketing!
I didn't know wheter to laugh or cry after reading that! I will say this though he is a major company president and an attitude like that is no help for any reasurgance for Traditional Muzzleloading in the market place!!!!
Oh and by the way don't let any of this make you think I don't like my little low entry Traditions rifle because if you have that opinion I will put it and myself up against anyone on any given day and if I am having a good day I will do OK!! :grin:
Russ T Frizzen
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I was talking to a friend of mine a while ago and I mentioned that the Austin & Halleck rifle was back under a new name and being made in Spain. He said that didn't surprise him because the lock on his old A&H Mountain Rifle was made by Ardesa--and it hadn't worked for about three years due to the innards being soft and wearing out. His thirty five year old T/C which was 100% made in the U.S.A. was still going strong. :v
Guest
Zonie,
My thoughts on this maybe weren't expressed well. Over time, since I've returned to the sport it appears that the companies that make B.P. rifles attempt to cash in on this style rifle merely by it's design. My T.C. is a wonderful rifle, very un P.C. in it's stock architecture and furniture. I don't believe that a half stock plains style rifle that now has the architecture and furniture that is similar to a Hawken rifle is justification to attach an extra $200 to $400 to the price tag of what is probably not a truly improved rifle. To give Traditions the benefit of a doubt, If it's production costs for tooling of the new rifle, then my thought was, drop the older line rifle, save those costs pass it on to the consumer to allow the new shooter or the shooter with limited means(Like yours truly) to be able to afford a rifle that has a much more authentic appearance. Part of Lyman's GPR's success IS it's much more authentic appearance and that can't be denied. The fact that it's usually a good shooter from the box is a huge plus. So that being said, to inflate the price because this company is now marketing a rifle that has a "must have" new look and expect a person to pay the inflated price based on appearance insults anyone except those new to the sport's intelligence. Just my thoughts pard.
Jay
My thoughts on this maybe weren't expressed well. Over time, since I've returned to the sport it appears that the companies that make B.P. rifles attempt to cash in on this style rifle merely by it's design. My T.C. is a wonderful rifle, very un P.C. in it's stock architecture and furniture. I don't believe that a half stock plains style rifle that now has the architecture and furniture that is similar to a Hawken rifle is justification to attach an extra $200 to $400 to the price tag of what is probably not a truly improved rifle. To give Traditions the benefit of a doubt, If it's production costs for tooling of the new rifle, then my thought was, drop the older line rifle, save those costs pass it on to the consumer to allow the new shooter or the shooter with limited means(Like yours truly) to be able to afford a rifle that has a much more authentic appearance. Part of Lyman's GPR's success IS it's much more authentic appearance and that can't be denied. The fact that it's usually a good shooter from the box is a huge plus. So that being said, to inflate the price because this company is now marketing a rifle that has a "must have" new look and expect a person to pay the inflated price based on appearance insults anyone except those new to the sport's intelligence. Just my thoughts pard.
Jay
Quoting the ad in the link this rifle has a "Highly figured select hardwood stock".
Anyone who builds custom muzzleloading rifles knows that a highly figured stock blank can easily cost $150+ more than a plain grained blank.
The stock in the picture does look like Maple and if Ardesa is importing high grade curly maple from the U.S. I can understand how the price could well escalate over $200.
I'm not trying to justify their high price but good wood isn't cheap any more.
Anyone who builds custom muzzleloading rifles knows that a highly figured stock blank can easily cost $150+ more than a plain grained blank.
The stock in the picture does look like Maple and if Ardesa is importing high grade curly maple from the U.S. I can understand how the price could well escalate over $200.
I'm not trying to justify their high price but good wood isn't cheap any more.
Guest
Zonie,
Hopefully in the near future we will see some good pics of this rifle. That way it can truly be sized up properly. I, like you, love good wood and finish on a rifle. And it surely would be a good reason for the extra cost, make the rifle worth the asking price. I got my fingers crossed that we will see some pics in the near future. None of the sporting goods stores in the San Angelo area carry traditional styled sidelocks on their racks.
Jay
Jay
Hopefully in the near future we will see some good pics of this rifle. That way it can truly be sized up properly. I, like you, love good wood and finish on a rifle. And it surely would be a good reason for the extra cost, make the rifle worth the asking price. I got my fingers crossed that we will see some pics in the near future. None of the sporting goods stores in the San Angelo area carry traditional styled sidelocks on their racks.
Jay
Jay
bajabuc
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I been wandering around town checking out the pawnshops for sidelocks. They're getting few and far between but I notice there's a ton of them thar inline puppies, they all look NEW or fired once and there's almost always powder residue in the barrel...but...what sidelocks I do find have been getting CHEAP. I might buy one, maybe, someday, when they get below 30$ for a TC. Which by the way was 20$ more than I was offered for my GPR. It's my teaser, don't ya know.
Guest
roundball,
My best gun is a T.C. Hawken all the gents here know it and never once have I been hit by any snide or sly comments. I shoot what I could afford to get, Try to help others here, and have been tee totally welcomed by you and EVERYONE ELSE it's been GREAT! Some day when I am as rich as I am ugly I want a percussion Lehman full stock .54 May be a long time comin' but till then I will start to let my brassy T.C tarnish now for the hunting season coming up.
Jay
My best gun is a T.C. Hawken all the gents here know it and never once have I been hit by any snide or sly comments. I shoot what I could afford to get, Try to help others here, and have been tee totally welcomed by you and EVERYONE ELSE it's been GREAT! Some day when I am as rich as I am ugly I want a percussion Lehman full stock .54 May be a long time comin' but till then I will start to let my brassy T.C tarnish now for the hunting season coming up.
Jay
Guest
Scalper,
The A.H. is gorgeous. And if they hold true to this form than the Traditions rifle will be worththe asking price.
Jay
The A.H. is gorgeous. And if they hold true to this form than the Traditions rifle will be worththe asking price.
Jay
Guest
Hairy,
Heck our pawn shops around San Angelo, Texas won't even hardly carry them any longer.
Jay
Heck our pawn shops around San Angelo, Texas won't even hardly carry them any longer.
Jay
windwalker_au
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cowpoke1955 said:
if you go to there site and download the catlog its says walnut not hard wood thats the pdf catalog.
bernie :thumbsup:
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