Are Muzzleloader's Weapons?

[Tahquamenon]

Spurred by an off topic to a thread in another category.

Do you consider muzzleloading rifles and pistols weapons?
If so, why?
If not, why?

IMO, I do because ML's are capable of projecting lethal force at a distance both intentionally and un-intentionally.

 

[Bearbait2]

Mr. Tahquamenon,
We have always considered them so, for the very reason you state.
Best Wishes.

 

[musketman]

Anything can be used as a weapon, knives, pipe, guns, wife's first attempts at thanksgiving dinner, rocks, cars, ect...

The person using the tool (in this case, a muzzleloader) must decide how it will be employed, therefore, the term "weapon" is a human concept...

Under that guise, yes, a muzzleloader is a weapon...

 

[Tahquamenon]

I agree, most anything can be used as a weapon. But my question is not the things that can be used as a weapon, but what is a weapon. Or in this quesiton, is an ML a weapon. Or is it something else until it's used as a weapon?

I also agree that ML's are tools.

Scenario: Your ML rifle is loaded and primed leaning against a tree while you are re-tying your boot.

The ML falls over and shoot's something un-intentional like yourself or someone else.

Were you using it? Was it a weapon in this case?

 

[musketman]

Scenario: Your ML rifle is loaded and primed leaning against a tree while you are re-tying your boot.

The ML falls over and shoot's something un-intentional like yourself or someone else.

Were you using it? Was it a weapon in this case?

The person would be at fault because he/she should have unprimed it first, so negligence would be the charge, and if the person shot died, that would probably fall under involuntary manslaughter...

A muzzleloader IS a weapon if the intent is there to do harm with it, otherwise it is a tool...

As an added thought, flintlocks are a multi-weapon:

1. Firearm (loaded and ready to shoot)
2. Club (unloaded)
3. Knife (sharp flint in jaw can cut)
4. Sword (broken ramrod can skewer)
5. Fire starter (arson's weapon)

 

[Gary]

They're tools and like hammers, screwdrivers, axes, cars, baseball bats, crowbars, bottles, chain links, fist & feet, teeth and the evil eye, may be used as weapons.

 

[Tahquamenon]

Musketman don't think I'm arguing here becuase I'm not ok?
eace:

So if you are hunting game with an ML with then intention of harvesting or otherwise killing and harming the animal, then it's a weapon?

Or, if you were target shooting and thus otherwise not intending to harm or kill something and yet harm happens to an animal or human, then the ML is not considered a weapon?

 

What are you people thinking????

This discussion does not need to take place!

A muzzle loader is a relic or curio.

It is not a weapon.

We like it like that!

We want it to stay like that!

It needs very badly to remain like that!!

Do you understand what I am saying?

A muzzle loader is a relic or curio, no more dangerous than the vase used to clobber someone over the head, the sword from great grandad's Civil War trunk or the knife from the antique carving set!

A muzzleloader is a relic or a curio by FEDERAL DEFINITION. We should leave the federal definition as it is and give no support to those that wish to change that definition!

Musket Man, please lock this thread down before we shoot ourselves in the foot with our own relics or curios!

:imo:

 

[musketman]

Musket Man, please lock this thread down before we shoot ourselves in the foot with our own relics or curios!

:imo:

Now where did I put that key... :hmm: :crackup:

So many times people will say, "it's not my fault" and the firearm takes the blame, well my guns don't kill people because "I" don't kill people...


Tahquamenon: The thought of you arguing never crossed my mind, we're cool... eace:

 

[Tahquamenon]

Gee whizz Ghost, what are you worried about?

Whom is the "we" that you are the spokesperson for?

 

[musketman]

Whom is the "we" that you are the spokesperson for?

The "WE" is every black powder shooter, and everyone of us should be spokespersons to promote and preserve our rights as gun owners...

Just because the Federal Government doesn't consider black firearms a weapon (yet) doesn't mean that they won't in the near future...

That is :imo: what Ghost is speaking about...

 

[hobbles]

Hi boys,
""Anything can be used as a weapon, knives, pipe, guns, wife's first attempts at thanksgiving dinner, rocks, cars, ect...""

That may be true, but the reason I don't call knives, pipe, wife's first attempts at thanksgiving dinner, rocks, cars, ect... is mainly cause I don't start the day with the intention of killin anything with them, I hunt with mine, I target shoot so I can kill, and do it quickly with one shot, I have always call a rifle and pistol a weapon, always will. If I read a post that doesn't call those a weapon, it don't bother me, I don't ask/tell them they should change their thinkin cause they are usin a word or words that I don't, That was the answer to Tahquamenon question
"Do you consider muzzleloading rifles and pistols weapons?
If so, why?
If not, why?
All in all, I agree with Tahquamenon and the others that call their weapon a weapon,
have a nice day,,,,

 

[Claude Mathis]

Do you consider muzzleloading rifles and pistols weapons?

This could turn into the "Hair Splitting Olympics".

Let's start with what the dictionary says: "Weapon: An instrument of attack or defense."

IMHO, there are two things that can make something a "weapon".

1. It was designed as a weapon, such as a gun, bomb, missile, etc.

2. Anything that is used "as a weapon" is, at that moment, a weapon.

Some might say that a gun is not a weapon until it's used. If that works for them, fine. Those are the hairs I don't need to split.

I know a weapon when I see one. eace: ::

 

[AeroE]

They are weapons. Weapons are intended to give the bearer an advantage for protection from someone who would harm or kill him, for protection from dangerous animals, for killing animals for food and survival needs, for killing other humans in war, and for just plain entertainment shooting holes in paper, knocking down silhouettes, and fondling.

I'm way beyond caring what the grabbers think or desire - we've got the firearms and mine will not be given up easily.

Make up your minds, because we aren't going to get it both ways, the confiscation of Evil Black Rifles and Sport Utility Rifles will be followed by your repeating bolt action hunting rifles (those would be sniper rifles), semi-auto and pump shotguns (not required for hunting, those are police guns), then all two shooters, then all single shots (just because no one needs to own a firearm). Somewhere along the way an ignorant politician will get sloppy legislation through that bans everything larger than .499 caliber, including muzzleloaders, because those are obviously too dangerous and have no "Sporting Use".

[Watch out for abuses and floating definitions of "Sporting Use".]

My original point is that it is useless to deny that all firearms are weapons and powerful tools for killing whose use is solely dependent on the character of the user (paraphrased from Jeff Cooper).

My second point is that we all better hang together and eliminate the factionalism, because our enemy already lumps us together.

[/rant mode off] Well not off, but turned down for now.

 

[Tahquamenon]

Well, I would not go as far as to say Ghost or anyone speaks for me.

Rights of gun ownership would be ff:. :imo:

I was simply wondering how folks felt about their ML's and why?

 

[Boonetract]

The Gubment say's its a non-Gun, so thats what it is. Any further discussion and I'll steal your land and come build a public shooting range on it. :kid:

Very dangerous thread. Just what some lefty anti gun nut needs is people on a muzzleloading forum refering to their non-guns as weapons capable of killing people.

 

Very dangerous thread. Just what some lefty anti gun nut needs is people on a muzzleloading forum refering to their non-guns as weapons capable of killing people.

Yea, what Bob said!!!

No one has to share my opinions on anything, but please let us not collectively give the left wing any more ammunition than they already grasp!

 

[SquirrelsaurusR]

Very dangerous thread. Just what some lefty anti gun nut needs is people on a muzzleloading forum refering to their non-guns as weapons capable of killing people.

I'm not going to hide in the shadows in the hopes that those who would dictate to others how to live their lives won't notice me. A firearm is a weapon. So is a car, if packed with explosives and detonated near a crowd of people.

What makes the difference is how you use them.

 

[robinghewitt]

This is my weapon and this is my gun
This one's for fighting
And this one's for fun.

 

[pepperbelly]

They are not curio and relics. They are antiques or replicas of antiques. The BATFE lists them as non firearms as far as the '68 GCA is concerned s they are not primarily used as weapons anymore. That is also how a firearm gets listed as a C&R if it's not 50 years old yet like my Yugo SKS made in '79.
These were weapons enough to win a revolution and tame a continent. They are not the same as something like a hammer that can be used as a weapon. They were designed as weapons, for hunting, defense, competition, etc.
The fact that they are not used as much as modern firearms does not make them less lethal.
I think to categorize them as non weapons makes them sound like a toy, and that is dangerous.
The BATFE may not class them as firearms, but I treat them as such. Anything less is irresponsible.
JMHO,
Jim