Are underhammer rifles frowned upon at traditional shoots?

[BE Wild Willy]

Gonna buy me a ball thrower to use at a local shoot, never been to one yet, and was wondering what your opinions were on this. As far as I know, this would be a Rendezvous type setting.

 

[123.DieselBenz]

Best would be to go and see what they use, or call around to the places if there are more than one, and see what they say ...

 

[hawkeye2]

If you show up with an H&A they might, they aren't real good copies of a traditional UH. If the rondy had an 1840 cut off date you may run into trouble even though it is easy to document UHs prior to that date. Some of the better shooters may possibly try to keep you from shooting as many percieve a UH as an (unfair) advantage. About 7 or 8 years back there was a lot of discussion about them on this forum with comments like "no mountain man ever carried one", "they are all post 1840" and on and on. Before you invest contact some members of the club and get their opinion.

Show up dressed as a gentleman from Boston circa 1839 with an Asa Story or Nicanor Kendall rifle and stand your ground!

 

[bob308]

what would they say if you showed up with a underhammer flintlock? yes i have seen the plans.

 

There is no reason that you should not be able to shoot an underhammer, H&A or others, as they are traditional ML'S. We have a fellow who has built a couple of underhammer flints and they shoot pretty well.
Mark

 

[jethro224]

I was at a rendezvous shoot last summer where a guy used an underhammer and nobody said anything. Still, it would be best to ask first. Rules may vary.

...or bring a sidelock too. :grin:

 

[Loyalist Dave]

what would they say if you showed up with a underhammer flintlock? yes i have seen the plans.

I would ask the provenance of the plans, and the date of the design. :grin:

Some events define "traditional" muzzleloader as either an original gun from X date or before, or a copy of that type of gun or design, and loads from the muzzle. So simply using some sort of flintlock ignition doesn't get ya to the firing line. So if you converted a modern inline into some sort of sidelock using a flint, it might not be allowed, or if you retrofitted a design from 1840 from caplock to flinter so it "qualified" for a flintlock match..., it still might not be allowed..., or it might..., depends on the event. A Ferguson or Hall rifle, though flintlock and historic in design, are breech loaders, so at some events would also be disallowed.

Here's something I'd like to have a machinist make some day. It's correct for Fur trade and after, and apparently the British army adopted them for a time. (Probably blood heavy though eh?)

Collier Revolving Flintlock Rifle and Pistol

LD

 

[leslie]

I don't go to rendys that get that picky.Underhammers were in existence before 1840 and are accepted at most rendys here in W.Wash.I get some snide remarks once in a while but thats all fun.

 

[ohio ramrod]

About four years ago ( the old memory is a little foggy ) A man showed up at the New Frontiersman may rendezvous( It will be the third weekend in may this year) with an underhammer flintlock!. It was a big hit and many of us shot it after the trail walk. It threw a large flash down and burned quite a few frock sleaves but it was interesting to shoot. Yes, there were a few made in the old days.Just as there were "center" fired flintlocks much like todays "inlines " If you ever get the chance to go to Dixie gun works museam you can see several examples of origional guns that were quite different from the basic guns we have come to accept from the time period. :idunno: :idunno:

 

[Jumpshot]

What about a side hammer? How far 'back in time' do they go?

 

[Rifleman1776]

There is no reason that you should not be able to shoot an underhammer, H&A or others, as they are traditional ML'S. We have a fellow who has built a couple of underhammer flints and they shoot pretty well.
Mark

I concur. They were fairly widely used. The H&A may not be an exact copy of anything but does well represent the style and era. If that is what you want, go fer it.

 

Show up dressed as a gentleman from Boston circa 1839 with an Asa Story or Nicanor Kendall rifle and stand your ground!

This is a very good point, do some research on under hammer guns, as well as shooting matches, print the information and roll it up in a piece of buckskin, when questions provide a "learning experience" for those uneducated folks that dare to question....

:thumbsup: :wink:​

 

[Snow on the Roof]

My experience has been, no one will complain about your rifle until you start winning matches.

Snow

 

[F.G. Ford]

Reply to Snow,
If you are shooting too well, and others start to complain, just drop a couple of bull's eyes on a neighbours target. :stir: :redface:

I have shot my H&A underhammer guns for forty five years, and no complaints.
I have shot my underhammer guns at modern gun turkeyshoots, and they ( competitors) complained a lot.
I won a lot!
Fred

 

[ohio ramrod]

What about a side hammer? How far 'back in time' do they go?

Actually the first locks made specifily for the "detonaters" were side hammers. The more common "drum and nipple" was a method of converting existing flintlocks to percussion. Often at the origional build. Back in the "old days" they did not have "just in time" delivery. Locks, barrels etc. were often ordered years ahead of actual builds. So the drum and nipple allowed for both converting existing guns and using inventoried parts with as little work as possible. :idunno:

 

[Rifleman1776]

I'll add a thought here on the underhammer subject.
We have a privately owned museum in Arkansas called the Saunders Museum in Berryville.
The museum contains hundreds of muzzle loading pistols. The majority of them are underhammers and some go way back to the beginning of the percussion era. I think Col. Saunders (not the chicken guy) had a preference for pistols and that is why so many are represented. Point is, the action was popular and widely used from the start of the perc. era up to, well....I guess....present time.
A friend of mine worked in the museum as a kid maintaining the guns. He now makes a really nice underhammer rifle he sells.
And, a digression, there is a local range named after Col. Saunders and there are two big ml shoots there every year.

 

[Jumpshot]

What about a side hammer? How far 'back in time' do they go?

Actually the first locks made specifily for the "detonaters" were side hammers. The more common "drum and nipple" was a method of converting existing flintlocks to percussion. Often at the origional build. Back in the "old days" they did not have "just in time" delivery. Locks, barrels etc. were often ordered years ahead of actual builds. So the drum and nipple allowed for both converting existing guns and using inventoried parts with as little work as possible. :idunno:

Interesting. So you're saying side hammers came first? I didn't know that.

 

[FishDFly]

I'll add a thought here on the underhammer subject.
We have a privately owned museum in Arkansas called the Saunders Museum in Berryville.
The museum contains hundreds of muzzle loading pistols. The majority of them are underhammers and some go way back to the beginning of the percussion era. I think Col. Saunders (not the chicken guy) had a preference for pistols and that is why so many are represented. Point is, the action was popular and widely used from the start of the perc. era up to, well....I guess....present time.
A friend of mine worked in the museum as a kid maintaining the guns. He now makes a really nice underhammer rifle he sells.
And, a digression, there is a local range named after Col. Saunders and there are two big ml shoots there every year.

"friend of mine worked in the museum as a kid maintaining the guns. He now makes a really nice underhammer rifle he sells."


Can you share some information and photos of your friend's work? I am a fan of underhammers and am partial to them.

 

[gmww]

How I missed this post I'm not sure. But here is a link to a post I did in 2006 about the history of underhammers.

http://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/fusionbb/showtopic.php?tid/189213/fromsearch/1/tp/1/

First known documented Underhammer is from Germany. It is a flintlock circa 1740. It has a 42” round rifled barrel. Rifling is 7 grooves and strait. It is a .685 Cal. It was from the personal armory of the Grand Duke of Saxe Weimar, at Etterburg Castle, Saxony. It is in the W. Keith Neal Collection. It is beautiful!

Also I site the existence of the earliest UH that was from the mid 1700's.

 

[Col. Batguano]

Back in the "old days" they did not have "just in time" delivery. Locks, barrels etc. were often ordered years ahead of actual builds. :idunno:

I didn't know The Rifle Shoppe was in business back then! :stir: