Authentic Hatfield Muzzleloader

[TeutonicHeathen]

Hello, My name is Jeremy and I have been a registered member and lurking on this board for awhile. I love shooting traditional BP. I was woundering what would be a good price on this gun, he wants me to make him a offer. I would like some more experience from the Traditional BP community.

 

[Zonie]

I don't know if it helps but the 10 year old 3rd ed. of the "Blue Book of Modern Black powder Values" says the value of a 100 % "Squirrel Rifle" (the name of their fullstock longrifle in .32 thru .50 caliber) was $520.
In 98% condition it was $420.

Time has passed and prices have gone up and I would guess it this rifle was in excellent condition it might be worth $550- $600 but the nicks in the stock would decrease its value.

I've read that the original Hatfields were well built but some of the later ones were a bit "iffy". Maybe some of the other members who are more familiar with these will be able to tell us if I'm wrong?

 

[Loyalist Dave]

Well the last Hatfields were ordered to Hatfield specs from Pedersoli, and that model of rifle is still made. You can view a Cabela's caplock Blue Ridge Hunter and zoom in on the photo. You will see the lock and trigger guard are identical to the rifle that you linked.

The seller claims this isn't an Italian made gun..., and the seller is sadly mistaken. We have no close shots of the barrel, but the lock, trigger guard, triggers, and lines on the stock at the lock mortise all match the photo of the Pedersoli product sold as a Blue Ridge Hunter. The Pedersoli rifles also have 39" barrels, not 36", 38", or 42", and this is the length the seller says his rifle has.

Hatfields were good rifles, even when they ordered them from Pedersoli, but the Hatfield name in this case does not necessarily make this particular rifle a collectable. I think the reason the seller mentions "I am flexible with the price but not by a few hundred dollars. Everyone wants something for nothing but you won't find it here" is because he's not fooling folks, and it's bothering him as he thinks he has a hand made rifle.

Quite frankly his insistance that it is "made in America" and his statement on being flexible would make me shy away from this deal. If he cannot recognise what this rifle actually is vs. what he wants it to be..., what else has he missed or is ignoring, or perhaps intentionally not mentioning? He may have been told it was all American made when he bought it, and refuses to understand he was misinformed.

A brand new .50 caplock BRH goes for $600 new today..., so I'd adjust your offer according to that.

LD

 

[Billnpatti]

I recently sold an American made .50 cal. flintlock Hatfield in excellent condition for $500. I did my homework on it and that was the price I came up for it. After reading his description of the rifle he has for sale, I think $500 would be a fair price. He may ask more and if he can get it, good for him. But I wouldn't pay more than $500.

 

[Billnpatti]

You are dead on about the early Hatfields being well made guns and the last ones being "Iffy". Actually, using the word "iffy" is being generous. They were junk. When the NRA meeting was held in Houston, I attended and saw the Hatfield booth with some of their guns on display. I was appalled at the quality of the guns they brought to the show. When you take guns to a big show like that, you bring only your best guns. If those were their best guns, Lord help the one who got a run-of-the-mill Hatfield. I had an early Hatfield with a three digit serial number and it was a really well made rifle and a darned good shooter. I hated to get rid of it but along came this absolutely gorgeous custom made rifle at an irresistable price. I went weak in the knees and sold the Hatfield in order to come up with the money to buy that custom made rifle. I have never looked back.....well.....maybe just a peek over my shoulder. I do miss that Hatfield. It was sweet, but it was one of the earliest made Hatfields made when they were turning out really good rifles.

 

[Prairieofthedog]

BillnPatti,I have also heard the early Hatfields were good rifles.So were the later guns by Pedersoli the bad guns?I have a Blue Ridge Cabelas Pedersoli and so far for me it seems to be a well built rifle.I also heard that Hatfield was assembling the Pedersoli parts themselves at one time.I think as the company was going down the tubes the quality went with it.I would think the Pedersoli assembled guns would have been good guns?

 

[hanshi]

First, welcome to the forum. I am not that familiar with the original Hatfields but the other posters certainly are. Still, if it were me, I'd get the Blue Ridge Hunter from Cabelas and have their backing to rely on.

 

[Zonie]

Do the Hatfield replacements made by Pedersoli have curly maple stocks?
I know Pedersoli uses a lot of European Walnut on their guns but I don't think they use much curly maple.

The one being offered in the OP's photo is curly maple.

The Blue Book mentions that there were several grades of curly maple available on the original guns and IMO, this gun doesn't have what I would classify as "extra fancy" or "hand selected fancy" wood which is why I didn't add in the $65 to $175 to the price these woods could bring.

 

[Billnpatti]

It was my understanding that Hatfield assembled all of their own rifles. I don't know who made the parts. I cannot believe that any of the Hatffield rifles were fully made by Pedersoli. I have owned a few Pedersoli rifles and they are all well made and good shooters. The Hatfield rifles that I saw in Houston at the NRA meeting looked horrible. Pedersoli would have never let a rifle like that out of their door so if it was made of Pedersoli parts, Pedersoli surely did not put them together.

 

[J.D.]

Hatfield rifles were popular in this area, back in the day. The early rifles with a 3 digit serial # were the best of the lot. Second generation rifles generally had issues. Some locks would not work properly. Some barrels would not shoot well. Third generation rifles were pure junk.

Pedersoli, somehow obtained the rights to build Hatfield rifles under their own name. IMHO, it is MUCH BETTER to buy a new Pedersoli than a used, Hatfield of unknown quality.

 

[jdkerstetter]

The first generation Hatfields were made by Missouri Rifle Works in St. Joseph, Mo. They had L&R locks and Green Mountain Barrels.

As I understand it second generation rifles were assembled from Italian parts in the States.

I have a Hatfield flinter in .36 that I have to assume was not made in Italy as there are no proof marks on the barrel as is required by Italian law, as I understand it. I just took the barrel out to be sure. Strange, no serial numbers anywhere either. Very curley maple stocked but probably assembled here from Italian parts as it does not appear to be an L&R lock and the absence of a serial number.

If the seller's Hatfield is made in the States then it would also have no proof marks. Now, if Italian barrels were imported here unbreeched and then breeched by Hatfield they would not be proofed either.

So, no Italian proof marks, assume assembled in the states. If the barrel bears Italian proofs then it was assembled in Italy.

Looking at the pictures, it is unlikely it is a first generation Hatfield.

Ask about the proofs. J.D.

 

[cowpoke1955]

My wife bought me a .45 Pedersoli Blue Ridge flinter about 20 years ago. When I took it to the range, a friend of mine showed up with his new .36 Hatfield flinter. We laid them on a shooting bench, side by side. The only difference was the caliber, the name on the barrel and his stock was maple and mine was walnut. Oh, one more difference...the price tag! Pedersoli makes a maple version of the Frontier (which is the same as the Blue Ridge): http: www.davide-pedersoli.com/scheda-pr...frontier-frontier-maple-percussion-model.html . Cabela's has the Blue Ridge percussion rifles on sale right now for $599.99: http://www.cabelas.com/product/Sho...=SBC;MMcat104792580;cat104701680;cat104641380 . My Blue Ridge is still a great shooter and very accurate.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

Do the Hatfield replacements made by Pedersoli have curly maple stocks?

Yes. In 1992 a fellow at the gunshop where I worked ordered a Hatfield flintlock in .50. It had very nice curly maple, however when the extra polishing was done on the rifle, the edges of the barrel flats were obviously a bit rounded. That's a classic machine polish mistake, and also a real "no no" on a high quality rifle.

A few years later I got a Blue Ridge Hunter, and as the fellow who owned the Hatfield kept it stored at the store, I compared the two. Other than the fact that mine was plain wood..., and didn't have the word "Hatfield" engraved in the metal, they were identical. OH and since mine didn't have a barrel that was highly polished before browning..., my barrel flats were much better than the Hatfield.

The gun on the listing probably isn't a bad rifle, if the bore is good...., the seller is just stubbornly incorrect about what he is selling, and appears annoyed that folks have pointed out his error.

For that price you can get a new gun, using American parts and assembled in America, and it will be closer to being HC..., from Sitting Fox Muzzleloaders. While it is true you will find higher grade muzzleloader "kits" as well as higher grade finished guns than the Sitting Fox products, (imho) the Sitting Fox guns are much "closer" to a historic school of gun building than the Hatfield-Pedersoli rifle.

LD

 

[TeutonicHeathen]

I think im going to pass on it. I dont know much about them and it is too pricey to go all in. I already have a kentucky rifle also on top of it