Thank you, it's the information I was wanting. As far as the whole groove and land thing, it is irrelevant to me, I only was curious if that was the way Mr Hoyt normally cut them. As far as my research, it started a long time ago when I was a Tank gunner in West Germany. I went to several museums and castles, talked weapons with old timers, and attended a few Jager shoots. It coninued as I went on to be a Light Weapons Specialist in the Airmobile Infantry in various foreign places. After 28 years in the military, I worked in State Law Enforcement, and always talked to the old timers about guns. I'm no expert but I have been burning powder for 65 years.