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Back to the range with my GPR

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Mr Nick

40 Cal.
Joined
Mar 27, 2005
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I went back to the range today with my Great Plains Rifle. I have been experimenting with patch size, ball size, powder type and load size. I can't seem to get it right.

My rifle is the GPR .50 cal with 1-60 twist with the lyman aperture rear sight and globe front. I'm shooting from the bench with the forewood on the rest.

I've tried .490 and .495 balls and patches of .010,.015, & .018. I was using Black Mag 3 and then tried Geodex fffg.
Loads ranged from 40 to 85 grains in 5 grain increments.
I used the .010 and .015 patches with the .495 bals and the .018 patches with the .490 balls. I used lubed felt wads under the patches (tried it with out the felt wads and found no difference in group size). The wads were lubed with the formula recomended by Gatfeo (mutton tallow, beeswax and parafin). The patches were lubed with the same formula only thinned with oive oil. After the balls were seated I gave the ram rod a couple light taps with a rubber mallet.

Group size at 50 yards ranged from 3" to 5". Not good. I've shot muskets and cap and ball before but this is my first patched ball rifle. I must be missing something.
 
How many shots have been through the barrel all together? Was the bore cleaned REAL good to get the factory grease out? My GPR .50 cal would shoot 3/4"-1" groups off a bench at 50 yds, using 90 grs of Pyrodex RS and a .495 Hornady ball with Wl-Mart pillow ticking lubed with Crisco.
 
I had about 100 rounds through it before todays session. The .015 patches were wal mart pillow ticking.
 
What about cleaning all the grease out of the new barrel? Did you buy it new? It takes a good solvent, i use spray brake parts cleaner, to clean the gunk out of the barrel. And then i lapp them with steel wool and WD-40 on a slotted shotgun tip. About 100 strokes up and down.
 
I initally cleaned it with a black powder solvent followed with hot soapy water. Maybe I needed to clean it better?
 
What type of powder were you using? How many shots were you shooting before changing combinations?
 
Get some J-B Bore Paste and some Scotch Brite pad. Take a patch worm and put a small part of the pad on that and dip it in the Paste. Then work that in the barrel for about 50 strokes. Clean the rifle with another hot water and soap followed by some solvent patches to get the Paste out...

This will help break the barrel in faster for you and might get it shooting better and faster.

Also if I were you I would push that load up to 90 - 100+ grains of powder. With the slower twist you can really throw a ball hard out of these rifles. My trade rifle shoots 100 grains of Goex 2f and gets excellent accuracy with patched roundballs.

Just to see what happens ... next time out try 50 grains of Goex 3f and a patched roundball.
 
Old40Rod; I have been using Black Mag 3 and Goex 3f. 3 to 5 shots with each combination. If 3 shots looked bad I moved on. If 3 shots looked promising I moved up to 5 shots.

Cayugad: One of my best groups was with 50 gr 3f goex, 490 ball, .018 patch. I fired six shots. 4" group. If I threw out one shot That made it 2 1/2".

I've now got about 200 rounds threw it. I have JB bore paste and scotch brite. I'll give that a try.
 
Gee wiz, perhaps something is amiss with the barrel or rifling?

I've never had that much trouble getting a rifle to print unless the barrel was bad. Which does happen now and then.

Really sorry to hear about your GPR blues.

Other than shooting really heavy loads (which supposedly many folks have remarked that the GPR shoot best with heavy charges) I'm out of suggestions.

Before you lap the barrel (which might void your warranty), I'd give Lyman a call and see if they can check the barrel. I know this is an Italian rifle, but they should help as you should not have to beg for decent accuracy or lap a barrel to get a production rifle to shoot decently IMHO. Besides, you could end up making things worst by lapping the barrel.

:hmm:
 
Mr. Nick-
My buddy and I bought .54 GPRs at the same time, shoot pretty much the same components, and get similiar good results. This is what we've found: As stated by others, GPRs shoot well with near max to max loads; 90 to 110 grains of 2f Goex, 90 to 100 grains 3f, 90 grains Pinnacle Powder, or 90 grains of Black Mag 3 (this is with .54, so check your Lyman manual and do not exceed max. loads for .50). My last 4 shot group at 50 yards with 100 grains Goex 3f was between 1 1/4 and 1 1/2". This is my hunting load.

Rebel made the point to be sure you have gotten the factory grease out of the bore. We did not lap our bores. Get some Hoppes or Break Free and a bronze brush and scrub it out. Then spray same stuff on a cleaning patch and BE SURE its clean. Actually, I just used patches and jag and mine shot great on the first trip to the range.

Be sure you have the correct wedge key in the correct hole. One is slightly longer than the other. I marked mine so I always put'em back the same way. Get an extra set (lost one once 330 miles away from home).

NOW HERE'S A POSSIBILITY: We have ONLY used Ox-Yokes "Wonder-Lubed" Pillow Ticking (pre-lubed, or lubed dry pillow ticking with wonder lube). We clean with soap and water, put away with Ballistol. Dry-patch once prior to loading to remove Ballistol. I THINK THE WONDER-LUBE MAY MAKE THE DIFFERENCE.

Give it a try. Good Luck.
 
Odd. I've used bear fat, Lehigh lube, and my own mix of murphy's/alcohol/pine sol and all have shot the same. I use cotton drill as a patch material (stuff that's in the pocket of your jeans). I get it at JoAnne's fabrics. 40# cotton drill. It has an extremely tight weave. I used it in the .50 GPR and use it in my .54 (same patches as a matter of fact). I shoot with a guy who uses the same patches, but just uses spit to lube.

I might add that I do run a damp patch after every shot, whether I'm using black powder or 777 3f.

:results:
 
Aha... I see I missed your earlier info on the powder. Sorry.

I'll tell you what I would do, after taking the excellent advice of making sure the barrel, etc., was crystal clean and smooth ... isolate and minimze the variables. I will be committing blasphemy with some of the following advice, so if anyone asks, you don't know me and I was never here.

1. Lose the wads. You don't need them. This advice will draw the wrath of the ever present "my daddy, his daddy and my uncle Pete used them fer years" lobby, I know, but lose them anyway. Just one more variable you don't need to contend with when you are problem solving.

2. Make sure your powder is fresh.

3. Use a batch of store bought pillow ticking patches, .015s or 0.018s. If you cut your own, make sure they are all as close to the same size as possible.

Prelubed patches would be better for reducing variances from load to load, but you probably could get away with unlubed if you use a store bought patch lube. I think you will get better consistency with a liquid patch lube as opposed to a butter type. Hoppes patch lube works very well for a store bought lube, IMHO. In any event try to have your patches and lube consistent as possible from shot to shot.

4. Use store bought balls, Speer or Hornadys. I run .490s through my .50 GPR... some of my friends run .495s. My experience is that it doesn't make that much difference in my rifle. Yours may be different.

5. Use a graduated powder measure so you can be sure of the amount of powder you are using.

6. Make sure your sights are solid... look at the very closely, see if there is any movement.

7. Start with a set powder, patch, lube and ball combination and shoot about 5 to 10 rounds, then assess. If you are going to change anything do it one variable at a time.

Most importantly.... bring a shooting friend and have them shoot a 5-10 shot string for you. You may find that unbeknowst to both of you that they are a gunsmith. I have handed more than one poor shooting firearm to a friend only to find that they magically repaired it by shooting it 5 to 10 times. :eek:
 
Been reading of your problems with the GPR. I have a couple of things for ya to consider also:

IMHO, I think you need to sandbag the rifle in the front & the rear because you have not eliminated shooter error. And this could well be a major contributor to the problem.

Also I am wondering if you are shooting too much in a day possibly getting tired, upset with the rifle, over anxious, & seen this happen lots of times.

If you shoot a good group of 3, just go on.... Shoot another group of 3, then go on. All that matters is you get them to group right now, and you got all your life to see how consistant Mr.Nick can shoot a group of 5-10, right now you need the rifle to perform.

Another thing I would try is some 2F powder in it. Some rifles seem to like that better. I think you should find a accurate load between 70 & 90 grains in 2F or 3F.

Also I think you should swab between shots & unless I missed it, I see no mention of that, I suggest modifying a .50 cal cleaning jag & in a drill with a 3 corner file so the first land is about .470 & the other are about .475 and the edges tapered back away from the muzzle & sharp. Swab with a liquid and use a teeshirt patch. NOT a tight swab, just a barely snug one, swab down & back one time, no pumping or extra work on it, just one smooth motion. The amount of lube on every patch must be the same each time. Here is a photo of a modified jag. The jag being slightly smaller on the front will push past the cruds & then gather the tee shirt material with the sharp edges & pull some cruds out on the way out. Keep in mind we are keeping the barrel consistant, NOT cleaning it. Also I find old cut up tee shirt material works som much better than patches & cheaper too. Shooting patches are usually too thick & too stiff & puth the druds into the breech & cause more problems than they eliminate. IMHO, your results may vary.

40CalJag.jpg


I would try some Lehigh Lube in the rifle or a good liquid lube in the rifle. I find that all of my rifles shoot a tighter group with a liquid lube rather than a grease patch. Again, the amount of lube you use on every patch must be the same. I suggest a lil 2 oz pump/spray bottle (Walmart) and usually 2 sprays on a dry day & 1 on a wet/humid day. Depending on your climate you may have to go to 3 for swabbing & 2 for shooting, just depends on the area you are in. I am using 2 to swab & one to load most of the time in my GPR except in the dry July or August & may go 3 & 2 on that. But the lil pump/spray bottle is the way to go with the liquid lubes in my rifles as it is very consistant.

One other thing I will stress also & it was mentioned above, it is Most Important that you only change one varible at a time. If you change patch thickness, all of the loads you shot previously are void. It is just like changing the pitcher in a ball game...... You start all over with the sequences. Same way with changing lubes, powders, ball size or brand even tho they be Supposedly the same dia, try the lst one you used & itf it works, fine. If it don't group, go up 5 grains & test then go down 5 grains & test & if that don't work ya have to start over.

I shoot 3 groups of a combo, and I write exactly what I loaded on them, Ball, charge, type powder, patch thickness & material, lube & how much, etc. I gem clip those together & then go to the next 5 grains up & do it over. Then when I have tried all I am going to try, I lay them out on the table & annalize them & see what is best. Then the next time out I go back & I work that load & combo again & 5 grains up & down from it. Then I annalize it again & so on.

Sometimes it takes me 3-4 settings at the range to find the right one. Sometimes it may take me 10 setting to find the right one. I feel most of the time the problems incurred in doing this is me & inconsistantcy on my part & usually when I have a problem, it ends up that was the contributing factor to the problem. Most people have a tendency (including me) to blame it on the rifle & usually it is not the rifle, it is the shooter. That is why IMHO front & rear sandbags is essential til ya get the rifle right, eliminate that varible & then work on you.

And the last think I can think of is the possibility of having a barrel under stress in the stock. I have seen one now & then you have to really push down the barrel to get the wedge pins in & this can cause a heat deflection on a real hot day & lots of shooting. A lil tension is OK but allot is not & you must relieve the area to get the stress off the barrel.

When you find the right load & combo, that rifle should shoot 1" groups or unde that at 50 yards. IMHO

:results:
 
Nick,
.530 Hornaday roundballs (I also cast my own out of a Jeff Tanner mould). For plinking, I use 60 grns 3f 777 (70 grns 3f Elephant). I'll up it to 80 grns for hunting. :results:
 
After the balls were seated I gave the ram rod a couple light taps with a rubber mallet.
May be that's the problem. In every book about BP rifle shooting it is mentioned that you should just seat the bullet firm in one uninterrupted stroke. You even shouldn't put your weight on the ramrod (albeit you see pounding and power-seating at every event)!

As for accuracy, Carl P. Russel writes in his book Firearms, Traps, & Tools of the Mountain Men, page 92:

...10. Hawken rifle, 10lbs, Barrel length 35", Caliber .50, Powder Grains 80 FFFg, Range (yards) 50.

Number 10 was R. Wiedebush's tests, Muleshoe, Texas, using an original Hawken. R. Wiedebush's target; 5 shots at 50 yards - all 5 shots are grouped so close that they can be covered with a 5-cent piece. Reporter, John Barsotti; letter, Barsotti to Russell, March 17, 1964 (with target).
 
I plan to incorporate the suggestions offered in this thread. However I may of found my problem. I am used to shooting a higher velocity cartridge (3006 etc.). I found a balistics calculator for round ball. The range I have been shooting at frequently gets windy in the afternoon. According to the balistics calculator, a 10 mph cross wind will drift my ball about 3" at 50 yards. I have been getting 3" to 4" groups. Next time at the range I will pay attention to the wind and see if groups are opening up in the wind direction.

Thanks for the input and "I'll be back"

Nick
 

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