Ball and patch combination

[lspjmp]

I just finished building a TOTW Jim Bridger's Hawken rifle and was wondering about a starting point for patch and ball combination's. The bore is .54 caliber and I have measured the grooves right at .575. I have both a .530 and .535 mold, but am thinking the larger ball might be hard to load even with thin patches.
I'm just looking for a starting point from more experienced shooters.

Thanks for any help.

 

[paulvallandigham]

If you don't own the material yet, Buy Dutch Schoultz's Black Powder Accuracy system, for just under $20.00. It is the best information you can have in working up loads for any rifle.
http://www.blackpowderrifleaccuracy.com/

You should be able to use a .530" ball in that gun with a .015" thick mattress ticking cotton cloth patch. BEFORE shooting the gun, make sure all oils and other compounds in the barrel have been removed, and the bore Polished with some tight cleaning patches and some abrasive. I use Pearl drops toothpast on a damp patch, backed by a dry patch, on my cleaning jag- not a loading jag you put on a ramrod--- to do this kind of work. It usually requires several applications of the abrasive to the cloth to get the burrs off the lands, and get the bore feeling truly smooth.

Check the crown of the muzzle, and the front of the lands. If any land has burrs or sharp edges, you will see cut or torn patches. Use a carriage bolt to back fine emery cloth to polish the crown and remove the burrs and sharp edges from the lands.

Some very good shooting is done at 50 yards, with Hawken style rifles in .54 caliber, using the .530 balls and the .015" ticking. Lube the ticking the night before you go shooting, so that the lube has time to fully penetrate the fabric. If you buy fabric from a fabric store, be sure to wash it a couple of times to remove the sizing that manufacturers put in the cloth to help it lay FLAT, so they can put more cloth on the bolt for shipping. Sizing is like Starch, and it will resist any lube- or liquid from penetrating the fabric. Inconsistent lube is the cause of a lot of bad groups. Again, read Dutch's materials.

Best wishes to you. :thumbsup: Get a solid range rod, and a separate Cleaning jag to put on it, with a muzzle protector, to use for loading and cleaning the barrel. Leave the wooden Ramrod in the gun to load the gun for a second shot in the woods, when hunting, or when you are shooting any kind of trail walk, where carrying your Range Rod may not be allowed. :hmm:

 

[Tom Compton]

.575
- .535
----------
.040 / 2 = .020

In my experience, a .535 ball and .018 to .022 patch will work best in a rifle with .575 groove to groove diameter - see above.

I have no info which barrel you have but would be surprised if the groove to grove is over .570 (.015 groove depth) in which case would expect a .535 ball and .015 to .018 patch to work well given the right lube.

.570
- .535
----------
.035 / 2 = .0175

As Paul said, get Dutch's system, read and heed.

TC

 

[lspjmp]

I forgot to mention that my rifle came with a Coleraine barrel. I just re-checked the measurement with a pretty good Starrett dial caliper and it measures 0.575 across the grooves.
I think I will try start with a .530 ball and .015 patches and experiment from there.

Thanks!

 

[Little Wattsy]

My favorite is the .535 and a .018....Good shooting stuff!

 

[necchi]

If it's the Green mountian barrel in .54, you'll wanna use the 530 for the first 100 or so shot's,,
,,then after she get's broke in you'll find the 535 with a tight patch WILL turn that barrel into a tack driver.

Expect the break in period where your searching for a load to be just practice and getting to know your gun.
Anyone that says their GM barrel shoot's great right from the start either hasn't shot it much, or are simply satisfied with alot less than the barrel is capable of.

I'm jelous,,I have been to Track several times and have handled and measured some of the JB Hawkins that have been done buy pro's,, very nice gun,,very nice feel, fit and balance.

 

[MikeChapin]

Unless you can thumb start the .530 with a .015 patch it should be a good place to start. You can polish the bore as Paul suggested. I prefer to fire lap with a toothpaste/water combo on the patch for lube. Five or six shots should polish the bore.

Patch/ball tightness is a relative thing. Some people I know, good shots, use a hammer to start the ball because it is so tight. The have to use a bit of force to get the ball down the barrel. I prefer the ball to start with a slap of the short starter and go down fairly easily after that. Some people think this is too tight and prefer a looser combination.

My criteria is that the rifle needs the combination that will give an inch or inch and a half group at 50 yards off the bench. I have a .53 Santa Fe that will not give less than a six inch group with a .520 ball and .020 patch. With the same ball and a .026 patch it will put every shot in an inch.

For you this may be a .530 with a .015 patch but may need the .535 with the same patch to do the job. You will just have to experiment. Every barrel is different.

 

[Swampman]

Track sell some .520 balls and they shoot best in all the .54s I've owned. I wouldn't bother with the .535s.

 

[Little Wattsy]

Track sell some .520 balls and they shoot best in all the .54s I've owned. I wouldn't bother with the .535s.

:shocked2: You must be useing shoe leather patches :hmm:

 

[lspjmp]

If it's the Green mountian barrel in .54, you'll wanna use the 530 for the first 100 or so shot's,,
,,then after she get's broke in you'll find the 535 with a tight patch WILL turn that barrel into a tack driver.

Expect the break in period where your searching for a load to be just practice and getting to know your gun.
Anyone that says their GM barrel shoot's great right from the start either hasn't shot it much, or are simply satisfied with alot less than the barrel is capable of.

I'm jelous,,I have been to Track several times and have handled and measured some of the JB Hawkins that have been done buy pro's,, very nice gun,,very nice feel, fit and balance.

Necchi,
I had always wanted something like a real Hawken. I bought a GPR and it is very nice, but, I still wanted something closer to the real thing. Having been to Track many times, I just decided to bite the bullet and get the kit. I'm glad I did.
I started on the rifle just a bit last summer, but since I planned a trip to the Bighorns in Wyoming last fall, I decided to take an extra day and visit the Buffalo Bill gun museum in Cody to see some REAL Hawken's in order to get some ideas on how to finish the rifle.
They allow photography there, and I took full advantage of it. I took around 150 photos of the rifles there, with many close-ups using my zoom lens at 10 megapixels. So, I have details of every rifle there right down to the rust spots on the barrel. What surprised me was the HUGE variety of sizes of the rifles on display. You can't get an appreciation of how different they are from the pictures. But in person, they are very different.
Anyway, they have one rifle that is attributed to Liver Eatin' Johnson (Johnston) and that is the one I tried to copy as much as possible. I'm also a pretty tall guy with large hands, so I made it a bit bigger for myself. It's a large and heavy rifle, but I love it!
I made a few mistakes, but none that are too noticeable. If you ever decide to build one of Track's kits, just take your time and don't rush it. It isn't too difficult, just time consuming. And they leave lots of extra wood on the stock for finishing. I used Dangler's for the metal browning and I used Laurel Mountain Forge for the wood finishing. I've done lots of woodworking and in my opinion, the LMF wood products are superior to Birchwood Casey products. The LMF stock finish builds VERY fast, so you don't need much to finish your stock. I think it is better than Tru Oil. It is definitely tougher. Just my thoughts....

Larry

 

[paulvallandigham]

I am aware of the deep grooves in this barrel, and the limits of cotton patches to fill those grooves. Its going to depend a lot on what kind of lube he uses, and the exact type of patching he is using to see what results he gets.

Like you, I expect that cotton will usually compress up to 1/3 of its thickness, but that compressed cotton moves from the lands over into the grooves next to the lands. The extra material and pressure on the cotton already in the grooves should fill the grooves. Like you I was thinking that denim as thick as .24" might be needed to make this gun work with a .530 ball, and as thick as .020-.022" to work with the ..535" ball.

ONLY READING HIS PATCHES WILL TELL HIM WHAT IS WORKING AND WHAT ISN'T. CUTS AND TEARS IN THE PATCHES WILL GIVE HIM AN IDEA OF WHAT PROBLEMS HE IS HAVING WITH THE BARREL, BALL DIAMETER, PATCH THICKNESS, AND LUBE.

That is why I join you in believing the best thing this man can do for himself is to obtain Dutch's system. Dutch has helped thousands of shooters get good accuracy from their MLers, including ME!

 

[Swampman]

The thicker the better. That way you don't have to use wads or over the powder cards. Hemp cloth makes the best patches because it doesn't burn through or tear. Cotton and linen work ok but not as good as hemp.

 

[Tom Compton]

Even with the squeezing effect of lead and patch to fill the rifling grooves, my experience has been that ball and patch combo needs to be near the groove to groove measurement. The heavier the charge the more important this seems to be to avoid stripping the rifling.

Even with many years of experience, I bought Dutch's system last year and am slowly working thru it with a .54 GM barreled flinter. Right now using .535, .018 and 8:1. Charges from 60 to 90 grains all are proving quite accurate.

TC