Ball and patch thickness for .50cal TC Hawken

[JelloStorm]

I see Cabela's has the Hornady round balls for sale. Size is .490", however the only patches they have are .010 and .020, as I'm sure the .005 just wont work.

So a .490" ball would require I'm guessing a .020 patch to make it .510. That would still be safe, right? Maybe just harder to ram down the barrel?

I'm somewhat new to all this and would rather ask first than post photos of my injuries later :grin:

 

[paulvallandigham]

All cotton patches compress to some extend. The amount depends on how thick the patch fabric is to begin with, and how tight the weave. The kind and amount of lube used on the patch also affects the compression.

Generally, using a .020" thick patch with a .490 ball is not going to make it that difficult to load, and you can be assured that there is enough fabric to fill the grooves in your rifle. Some people like using a .015" thick patch, and the .495 ball; others like using a .490" ball, and a .018" thick patch. Expect the patch to compress about 1/3 its thickness when lubed and pressed into the bore.

In my experience, the only place where a thick patch causes any difficulty is when seated at the muzzle. Once the patch and ball are in the barrel, ONLY a dirty bore will cause problems running the PRB down the barrel onto the powder charge. Cleaning the barrel between shot eliminates that problem.

Always recover your fired patches and READ THEM. Look for holes, and Streaks running up the grooves from the sealing ring. Those are No-Nos! Squared cuts or holes that align with the lands indicate that the crown of the muzzle needs to be polished, as that is how those cuts occur.

Dutch Schultz has a BlackPowderRifleAccuracySystem, that explains how to read your patches, and then change your components one at a time, to eliminated problems. He only has a limited number of copies left to sell, and the cost is worthwhile. See his site:
http://www.blackpowderrifleaccuracy.com/ for more information. :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

 

[JelloStorm]

Yeah I just picked up his book. Hope my $20 was worth it!

 

[Rifleman1776]

Yeah I just picked up his book. Hope my $20 was worth it!

You will get the value out of it only if you read and heed. Tons of good info in it.
I don't always agree with his target 'reading' analysis but he is one of the best versed ml people alive.
BTW, he is a fine person but, unfortunately, having some health problems lately.

 

[Rifleman1776]

I didn't respond to your original question. The .020 might be a bit difficult to start if you are loading from the pouch. On the range with a short starter it would be considered routine. Hopefully, it won't break yer budget to buy both and try.

 

[David W.]

I see Cabela's has the Hornady round balls for sale. Size is .490", however the only patches they have are .010 and .020, as I'm sure the .005 just wont work.

So a .490" ball would require I'm guessing a .020 patch to make it .510. That would still be safe, right? Maybe just harder to ram down the barrel?

I'm somewhat new to all this and would rather ask first than post photos of my injuries later :grin:

It's been a many moons I owned a T/C .50, but I remember using a .490 ball, .015 patch, and 80 gr FFg Goex. When I shot 60 gr, the rifle was extremely accurate. The T/C has shallow grooves so there is less space to fill up. The .010 patch may work, but NOT any thinner.

 

[cowpoke1955]

I'm with flintlock62. I have two .54 Lyman GPRs that loves .530 balls and pillow ticking patches, which mic's at .018. When I got my .54 T/C Hawkens, I tried the same combonation, but it was so tight, I couldn't even start the ball. I got some .010 patches, which works fine. The T/C Hawkens / Renegade and the T/C Maxi Balls are made for each other. That's the reason for the shallower grooves.

 

[Zonie]

Hopefully you have a "short starter".
Looks like a ball with a couple of short 3/8" dowels sticking out of it.

If your using a .490 diameter ball with a .020 thick patch (which usually produces excellent accuracy) the size of the patch wrapped around the ball will be .530 diameter, not .510.
There is patching on both sides of the ball so you have .490 + .020 + .020 = .530.

The material will compress a great deal when it is rammed into the barrel and this will assure you that the patching is nicely compressed in the rifling grooves as well as the bore. That will keep the high gas pressure (can be over 10,000 psi) behind the ball where it belongs.

To use the short starter, first pour the powder down the barrel. Then center the patch on the muzzle. Place the ball in the center of the patch and push it down with your thumb or finger.
Place the short dowel of the starter on the ball.

Using the palm of your hand, slap the top of the ball to drive the patched ball into the muzzle.

Place the longer dowel on the started ball and push the starter down until it hits the muzzle.

Use your ramrod by grasping it about 8" above the muzzle and pushing it down. Repeat this until the ball seats on the powder.

Never grab the ramrod 2 feet above the muzzle and try pushing the patched ball down the bore. This will often break the rod leaving a jagged sharp edge that can punch right thru your hand or arm.

 

[tiger955]

Like flintlock62 I haven't shot a TC factory barrel for a while. I usually shoot a GM barrel on my TC flinter which has much deeper grooves and use a .490 ball with .018 patch which works well.
I have a TC hawken caplock with the stock shallow groove barrel I am playing with now (off and on) trying to work up an accurate round ball load. I cast .490 balls for my other 50's so that is what I am working with. I tried .010 patches and they are not thick enough, too much blow-by, poor accuracy, lots of fouling. I tried .018 pillow tick patches, good accuracy, but I practically have to pound the balls down the barrel, too tight. I bought some .015 pillow tick (red stripe) at JoAnn's fabric and am going to try it out later today, should be a good fit. I'll try to post my results this evening.
I am not sure how consistent TC makes their barrels, yours may be different. I have an older gun that does not have the QLR machined into the muzzle, but I am pretty sure that the .020 patches will be too thick for you. I also use a heavy brass ramrod in mine, as tight as the .018 patches are I would be nervous pounding those loads down with a wood rod.

 

[tiger955]

Ok, so I tried the .015 patches in my TC today, they loaded rather snug, but I didn't have to pound them down. Accuracy was acceptable but not great (2" at 35 yds). I was shooting 70gr. of Goex 2f, more load development would likely tighten up the groups. MY gun does not seem to like 3f, groups tend to be larger. The sights on this gun aren't the best so better ones would probably help also.
I use Hoppe's #9 black powder solvent for patch lube when range shooting as I don't have to clean between shots as with the grease type lubes. I use them wet but not dripping, probably not good if not shooting right after loading as in hunting, as the lube would likely soak into the powder. I use Crisco if it will be loaded for a while but have to swab the bore after 3-4 shots. TC bore Butter is the worst IMO.
Although this is an older gun, some of the shot patches I picked up had some cuts from the rifling showing it has not been fired much. The patches were clean with no signs of blow-by.
My balls are home cast with wheel weights and measure .490-.4915.
So, the short of it... In a TC Hawken 50 cal a good starting point would be, .490 balls, .015 patches with good lube, 70-ish gr. of 2f BP. Once you get used to shooting it and establish a baseline for accuracy, you can vary things to tighten up your groups. This is what seems to work in MY gun, yours may have different preferences.
Have fun!

 

[David W.]

Wheel weight lead is harder unless you're using the stick on one's. They also cast a little larger than pure lead. You may want to try .010 thick patching and see how that works.

 

[BrownBear]

Between flinters and cappers there have to be over half a dozen TC 50's here in the neighborhood. All the owners use .490 balls and either red or blue ticking, however you measure that. Call it .015 or .018.

The single exception is the one guy who has one of their round ball barrels, which evidently has deeper rifling. In any case, he never was happy with .490 and any patch he tried, but things came around when he switched to a .495 ball and blue ticking.

As for lubes? You name it, and someone around here is probably using it. :rotf:

 

[tiger955]

I tried .010 patching a while back, had a lot of blow-by on the fired patches I picked up, also a lot of fouling left behind. with the shallow rifling it needs a tight ball/patch combo.

 

[tmbrdr69]

I shoot a .490 ball with .015 patch. The main charge is 75 grains of 3f. The load is an accurate load tested at about 35 yards. I still have the stock sights on my rifle.

 

[Maven]

Bryan, For the most part, .50cal. T/C barrels accept .490" RB's and .016" patches, which will compress to ~.014". Keep in mind their .50cal. RB molds cast [pure lead] almost exactly .490" and their line of patches measure ~.016" uncompressed. While it is certainly possible that your bbl. may require a slightly different ball & patch combination, in the absence of any evidence to the contrary, I'd try .490" RB's and .016" patches first. 60 - 70gr. FFg or Pyrodex RS (if you must), BY VOLUME, is a good place to start.

 

[ebiggs1]

Pyrodex isn't going to work well in his flintlock. :nono:

I am glad the 15 TC cap and flint rifles I currently have are not as finicky as the ones you guys have. They all seem to react and shoot similar to each other. :wink:
A 490 Hornady RB, an 018 pillow patch and Bore Butter (olive oil or whatever) and 70 grs of 3f GOEX (4f prime). Nothing special, just load and shoot. :thumbsup:
A 2” group at 35 yards, from my bench rest would be considered poor in my experience. :redface:

 

[Maven]

Bryan, I forgot that you have a flintlock. Ernie Biggs is of course correct in saying Pyrodex won't reliably ignite in a flintlock. Real black powder, FFg or FFFg is what you want for the main charge, FFFFg for the priming charge.

 

[JelloStorm]

Maven,

Yeah reading Dutch's guide on the 7 hour drive down here to Richmond today with the family, I learned the importance of weighing the balls and using a micrometer to mic the patches both regular and compressed.

I'm still not certain on how to align the ball in your bore based on the mold line. Anyone care to explain that or show me a picture of how the mold line should be oriented when seating the PRB?

Dutch advised that we should trim out patches at the muzzle after seating the PRB lightly I think. Not sure I can really trim my patches in the field too well, but I'll give it a shot.

 

[BrownBear]

Not sure I can really trim my patches in the field too well, but I'll give it a shot.

I do, and it's not that big of a deal with a sharp knife. As a matter of fact, I do the same with my loading blocks, so the patches are "cut at the muzzle" long before they get near a gun. :grin:

 

[paulvallandigham]

Most of us load a cast round ball with the sprue UP, so that we can center that sprue in the barrel. Just push the fabric ahead of the ball, so that the ball is seated BELOW the rim of the muzzle. Now, using a razor-sharp knife, cut that fabric using the muzzle as a guide for your blade. It should cut in one swipe- if you hold the ends of the fabric up and out away from the muzzle.

Cut with the edge moving Away from your body, for personal safety. Razors cut shirts, and flesh really well.

Please don't ask how I know that. Thank you. :redface: :hatsoff: :haha: :surrender:

Once you do this a few times, you will wonder what the fuss is all about, too.

Oh, I have seen fellows with dull knives sawing away on that fabric, like its steel. If you don't know how to hone a knife to a razor's edge, just ask. It used to be a skill that little boys were taught before they were 8 years old, and allowed to carry a pocket knife. Not everyone grows up with a knowing father figure to teach you, but its never too late to learn, either. :idunno: :grin: :bow: :v