Use a .440 ball. The only persons I know that use a .451 ball in a .45 caliber muzzleloader are the NMLRA target shooters and then they use a Teflon impregnated canvas patch and a hammer and a steel ramrod to load it.
Bob
Bob
Ball And patching size
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AZbpBurner
54 Cal.
Too much speculation about an unknown bore size. You can assume the builder knows his stuff, so you can run out and buy that .451 mold or a 5# bag of balls. You can deal with him later when he admits an oopsie when the balls don't fit.
OR
You can wait until you have the rifle in hand. Measure the bore, land to land. Calculate: Bore diameter - (patch thickness X2) = a more realistic and workable ball diameter.
Calculate using a .015" patch. That way you have room to use a thicker or thinner patch, if needed.
OR
You can wait until you have the rifle in hand. Measure the bore, land to land. Calculate: Bore diameter - (patch thickness X2) = a more realistic and workable ball diameter.
Calculate using a .015" patch. That way you have room to use a thicker or thinner patch, if needed.
If I used your formula for a .50 caliber bore and subtracted twice the thickness of a .015 thick patch I would end up with a .470 diameter ball for the answer.
If I used a .45 caliber bore and subtracted twice the thickness of a .015 thick patch I would end up with a .420 diameter ball.
Seems to me that combination wouldn't do a thing to seal off the rifling grooves.
IMO, using a standard ball size that is .010 smaller than the bore is a good place to start.
That equals a .440 ball for a .45 or a .490 ball for a .50 cal barrel.
Using that simple "bore size - .010" to figure the ball size then leaves figuring out the patch thickness as the next thing to do.
In order to seal off the rifling grooves, the patch must be thicker than the groove is deep.
A thickness of about .002 minimum thicker is about the minimum that can seal off the thousands of pounds of gas pressure that happens when the main powder charge ignites.
Using this .002 value for rifling grooves that are .010 deep (like the Lyman GPR) says a .012 thick patch would be the minimum that could be expected to work well.
A little problem comes up now.
If I use a .440 diameter ball in my .45 and if I use a .012 thick patch adding the .440 ball size plus two thicknesses of the .012 thick patch, (there's patch material on both sides of the ball) I get a ball/patch diameter of .464.
The .450 diameter bore plus .010 rifling groove on one side + .010 rifling groove on the other side adds up to .470 groove diameter. The .464 patch/ball diameter is .006 smaller in size than the grooves.
If I use a .015 thick patch the .440 + 2X the .015 thick patch/ball diameter becomes .470. That's just enough to cause the patch to touch the rifling grooves.
If I use a .018 thick patch plus the .440 diameter ball the combination adds up to .476. That will seal off the rifling grooves nicely.
The only problem is cramming a .476 diameter patch/ball conbination into a .450 diameter bore takes a bit of work.
Fortunately, the patch material will crush down quite easily and a pure lead ball will deform if the loading pressures get too high.
This patch crushing and ball deforming is why getting the patch/ball started into the muzzle takes a bit of force. After it is started into the bore it becomes quite easy to ram it down the rest of the way to the powder charge (unless the bore is fouled).
At least that's my take on the subject. :hatsoff:
If I used a .45 caliber bore and subtracted twice the thickness of a .015 thick patch I would end up with a .420 diameter ball.
Seems to me that combination wouldn't do a thing to seal off the rifling grooves.
IMO, using a standard ball size that is .010 smaller than the bore is a good place to start.
That equals a .440 ball for a .45 or a .490 ball for a .50 cal barrel.
Using that simple "bore size - .010" to figure the ball size then leaves figuring out the patch thickness as the next thing to do.
In order to seal off the rifling grooves, the patch must be thicker than the groove is deep.
A thickness of about .002 minimum thicker is about the minimum that can seal off the thousands of pounds of gas pressure that happens when the main powder charge ignites.
Using this .002 value for rifling grooves that are .010 deep (like the Lyman GPR) says a .012 thick patch would be the minimum that could be expected to work well.
A little problem comes up now.
If I use a .440 diameter ball in my .45 and if I use a .012 thick patch adding the .440 ball size plus two thicknesses of the .012 thick patch, (there's patch material on both sides of the ball) I get a ball/patch diameter of .464.
The .450 diameter bore plus .010 rifling groove on one side + .010 rifling groove on the other side adds up to .470 groove diameter. The .464 patch/ball diameter is .006 smaller in size than the grooves.
If I use a .015 thick patch the .440 + 2X the .015 thick patch/ball diameter becomes .470. That's just enough to cause the patch to touch the rifling grooves.
If I use a .018 thick patch plus the .440 diameter ball the combination adds up to .476. That will seal off the rifling grooves nicely.
The only problem is cramming a .476 diameter patch/ball conbination into a .450 diameter bore takes a bit of work.
Fortunately, the patch material will crush down quite easily and a pure lead ball will deform if the loading pressures get too high.
This patch crushing and ball deforming is why getting the patch/ball started into the muzzle takes a bit of force. After it is started into the bore it becomes quite easy to ram it down the rest of the way to the powder charge (unless the bore is fouled).
At least that's my take on the subject. :hatsoff:
Let's not get the cart before the horse. Since the man is a new flint shooter, he needs to concentrate on learning the quirks of a flintlock. Accuracy can come a bit later. A .440 ball with ticking will be a good combination to learn with. After he gets the routine down and breaks in the barrel a bit, he can start to work up a load. Information overload could be a concern.
ec121 said:
thank you for that,
I am new to Flints as well,(only shot some percussion pistol in the past) and have had some 'overloading' myself on what to start with, what to use, etc etc,
not that the threads I have read here and on Gunboards have not been informative, quite the contrary, they have,
but sometimes it is good to just get the basics to start out!!
thecapgunkid
40 Cal.
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I hope a lot more newbies read this thread, especially the one about not biting off more than you can chew.
Hard Knocks since the 1970's got me to always starting off with store bought balls two sizes lower than my caliber and a ticking/denim patch in a new rifle.
I also lubed with cleaning fluid when on trail walks or just range matches.
Without a clue to it, I found that I was slicking up my barrel and avoiding fouling in one swell foop. Moreover, I didn't have a lot to do when cleaning at home and my guns sighted in faster.
I got tight enough groups, won my share of Turkeys and blue ribbons at Saratoga, always shooting offhand. I also found my groups were tight enough that I could track and correct flinching because I only did one thing:
I did not overthink anything and always started from the same reference point.
Go figger
Hard Knocks since the 1970's got me to always starting off with store bought balls two sizes lower than my caliber and a ticking/denim patch in a new rifle.
I also lubed with cleaning fluid when on trail walks or just range matches.
Without a clue to it, I found that I was slicking up my barrel and avoiding fouling in one swell foop. Moreover, I didn't have a lot to do when cleaning at home and my guns sighted in faster.
I got tight enough groups, won my share of Turkeys and blue ribbons at Saratoga, always shooting offhand. I also found my groups were tight enough that I could track and correct flinching because I only did one thing:
I did not overthink anything and always started from the same reference point.
Go figger
