ballistic data of muzzleloaders

[PreglerD]

Hello community, I'm a muzzleloader from Germany, also I'm a hunter. In Germany hunting with muzzleloaders is not very common, but I will try nevertheless. The German hunting law says that for hunting on "rehwild"(small deer)rifles must have a 100 meter-energy of 1000 Joule. My question is, will a cal .54 percussion rifle like Hawken or so with a round bullet bring this energy and if so what blackpowdercharge is needed. In the muzzleloader-magazin I read that hunting loads up to 110 grs FFg goex are not unusual.
Thanks for any answer.

 

[HardBall]

The German hunting law says that for hunting on "rehwild"(small deer)rifles must have a 100 meter-energy of 1000 Joule.

If I did my math right, 1000 Joules is about 1355 ft/lbs. You're not going to get that kind of energy at 100 meters with a patched round ball from a .54 cal. You'll probably have trouble getting that much energy at 100m with any common sized round ball rifle (.54, .58, .62)

The round ball looses velocity very rapidly so it may have good kinetic energy at the muzzle, but it won't have very much after traveling 100m.

 

[PreglerD]

Hello Hardball, thank you for the answer. Do you think it will be possible with any other bullet like minie, maxiball etc?

 

[biliff]

Not sure if you did the math right. I found this page with conversions (its German by the way)conversions and it converts 1000 Joules to 738 fpe. If that's correct than I think the larger round ball loads (58 and 62) will make the cut off, but I would have to look around a bit more for velocity and energy figures.

 

[Bountyhunter]

There are a lot of centerfire cartridges that cannot make that benchmark. 1355ft/lbs would knock out almost all pistol cartridges and a lot of rifles.

Using an energy calculator and figuring a .530 1/10 alloy ball, the weight will come to 215 grains. Energy is a function of weight and velocity.

215 Round ball at 1200 fps =687.33 fpe
1300 fps=806.66fpe
1400 fps=935.54fpe

So, you might need to play with loads and a chrono to see if you can drive the ball to that speed safely.

Anybody have any figures on what the velocity of a .530 round ball over different powder charges would be? I've seen it somewhere but have no idea where. It would seem that 1400 fps wouldnt be impossible to achieve. I am getting over 1300 out of my .45-70 TD Springfield with 500 gr bullets over 70 grains of FFg.

That'd be a load that would carry that velocity at 100M.

B

 

[biliff]

Checked it against another conversion sight and it still comes up with 738 fpe = 1000 joules.

 

[paulvallandigham]

Perhaps the question to ask is why is 100 yds chosen for determining a gun's energy value on an animal? most deer and wild boar are shot at much closer distances. The energy figures at 50 yds for round ball are much, much better. In thick cover, you can rarely see 50 yds, much less get a clean shot. The only thing you can see at 100 yds, is the top of trees.

 

[biliff]

Ran some RB numbers at 100 yards (sorry don't have a 100 meter RB calculator) and you can't get to 738 fpe (1000 joules) with a .54 RB and any reasonable velocity assumptions.
Did some calculations for a 430 grain TC maxiball and you would need a minimum of 879 fps at 100 meters to make your minimum energy levels. That should be quite doable but I can't find any tables to confirm it for the .54. Did find energy tables for the 370 grain 50 caliber Maxiball and it more than made the minimum so a .54 Maxiball should be even better. (Did these calculations by hand so double check)

 

[biliff]

I don't think he has any choice as the energy requirements are a matter of law/regulation.

 

[Bountyhunter]

He is pretty much restricted with PRB, but, will the regs allow the use of bullets like the Hornady Great Plains bullet? They are short and fat and seem to work ok in my Hawken with 66" twist. They are just a bit expensive for target shooting at almost sixty cents each off the shelf here. Also, can they be shipped to Europe?

 

[HardBall]

Not sure if you did the math right.

Thanks for the correction Bill. I had it backwards. 1,000 Joules = 738 ft/lbs.

I'd have to check Lyman's BP loading books but I think a VERY strongly loaded .58 round ball rifle might achieve that. I also think A stoutly loaded .62 round ball rifle should meet that mark as well (good excuse to build a .62 Jaeger rifle).

As for longer, conical bullets, yes. It would be no trouble at all to achieve 1000 joules at 100m in a .54 cal.

 

[WV_Hillbilly]

Not sure if you did the math right.

Thanks for the correction Bill. I had it backwards. 1,000 Joules = 738 ft/lbs.

I'd have to check Lyman's BP loading books but I think a VERY strongly loaded .58 round ball rifle might achieve that. I also think A stoutly loaded .62 round ball rifle should meet that mark as well (good excuse to build a .62 Jaeger rifle).

As for longer, conical bullets, yes. It would be no trouble at all to achieve 1000 joules at 100m in a .54 cal.

1000joules = 738ft.lbs. Hmmmm...
I also think a VERY STRONGLY loaded .58cal, .62cal (or larger) with PRB possibly could work at 100 metres (110 yards). The problem is that a gun that could tolerate that kind of load has to be EXTREMELY well built and heavy. The recoil is going to be substantial as well. The velocity is going to have to be relatively high--610 metres per second or about 2000fps.

I would also suggest a conical if that is within the regulations as it would make the minimum energy level with much less trouble. Is it possible for you to cast your own projecticles IF conicals are permitted? That may be your best option.

I'm sure others agree with me, that most of us would gladly send you some suitable conicals IF there aren't any restrictions on that. The guns that could possible meet the energy figures are going to be much stronger than any original jaegers. You don't want to hurt an authentic antique gun. It's worth much more to keep nice. I would suggest an Underhammer style rifle to be built, but they are going to be expensive.

Please keep us informed about your situation.

 

[Zonie]

1 joule is equal to .7353 Ft Lbs so 1000 joule's is equal to 735.3 Ft Lbs.

The Lyman Black Powder handbook says a .535 dia roundball loaded over 120 grains of Goex FFg (28 inch barrel) has a muzzle velocity of 1674 FPS but at 100 yards, the velocity has dropped to 1043 Feet per second with a energy of 555 Ft Lbs.

Using this book for data I see that a .54 cal Thompson Center 430 grain "TC Maxi" loaded over 70 grains of Goex FFg (American granulation grades, not European) will have a muzzle velocity of 1123 FPS and a velocity of 963 FPS at 100 yards. The retained energy will be 885 Ft Lbs which exceeds the German requirement.

Other slugs which also exceed the requirement with a FFg powder load (at 100 yards) are:
338 grain "Buffalo Ball-et" with 90 gr FFg (752 Ft Lbs)
425 grain "Buffalo HP Conical" with 60 gr FFg (895 Ft Lbs)

In my opinion, these slugs should be used in a rifle with a twist of 1:48 as the slower 1:60 may not stabilize them.

zonie

 

[wszumera]

google can do that calculation
[url] http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&q=convert+1000++joules+to+foot+pounds[/url]

Clutch

 

[Zonie]

You mean I missed it by 2.2621 foot pounds?
Dam! Either I'm getting old or google is mistaken.
zonie :grin:

 

[wszumera]

Maybe your slide rule is off.

Clutch

 

[Zonie]

Maybe your slide rule is off.

Clutch

It couldn't be. It is a K & E DECI-LON !!
They don't make um like that anymore!! :rotf: :grin:

zonie

 

[PreglerD]

Hello, thanks for the information. I think i will try first with conicals. They are not against the regulations because regulations say nothing about the bullets, only energy. What would you say to an .530410 Minie-Bullet, charge 70-75 grs swiss no 2. I have now read in a german publication from 1983 (Blackpowder digest) that a .58 rifle with a 500grs Minie and 65grs FFg reached a muzzlevelocity of 325 m/s or 975fps, this will make a muzzle enrgy of about 1600 joule. Think that it will be at 100m also up to 1000J

 

[hawkeye1755]

In my QuickLoad V.3.2 programm from[url] H.Br[/url]ömel i get the following data:
.575cal RB 286 grains
barrel: 42"
90gr.Goex ffg
1527fps = 465 m/s
that makes 2000.54 J
:hatsoff:

 

[CoyoteJoe]

As others have stated, no reasonable load with round ball will meet that 100 meter requirement. A .50 caliber 370 grain maxi-ball with as little as 70 grains should just do it and .54 or .58 maxi or minie should be fine with 80 grains or more.
I don't know what evidence you may have to submit to prove that your load qualifies, that could be a snag.