Ballistics calculations...

[Dphar1950]

“Oneposter here or on another site talked of his wife shooting a buckthrough the lungs that they then killed the NEXT YEAR and noted the bullet track in the lungs.”

I’m going to have to call BS on that. Once the lungs have even a small hole they eventually collapse (I know as I’ve had it happen to myself twice now) and cannot reinflate. One lung maybe, but not both.

 

[Dphar1950]

I’m not sure where you get the BC numbers for a 300 grn bullet. Hornady lists them as much higher. The .45 cal is 0.200 and the .44 cal is 0.245.

IdahoRon has tested the .50 cal 320 grn Lee REAL and found them to have a BC of 0.189. Another fellow who claimed to understand calculating the BC of a similar projectile stated the 250 grn version would be roughly 0.148. I have both molds and would likely use these, though I’ve contemplated a custom mold to produce a similar projectile but with a wider meplat.

From Hornady. The 350 gr XTP has a .145. I don't know how they developed the BC but their rifle bullets are all checked with radar now.
How did Idahoron check the bullets?
I did baffle board checks on Maxi ball penetration in the 1970s and wrote it up in the Buckskin Report. I found that based on the velocity/penetration of a 50 caliber pistol I had shot a deer and an Antelope with that a 54 RB would shoot through a Mule Deer to about 200 yards on broadside shots. (I have shot through Mule Deer broadside to about 150 yards). I found that the 54 Maxi would penetrate about 30% farther (and ruined a nipple in about 15 shots in the percussion rifle I was shooting them in. I have a very well versed friend in Northern BC Canada who tells of moderately loaded 54 shooting either to the far side hide or exiting, I have not read the account for a couple of years, of a BULL MOOSE. One shot kill. So what would the hunter have gained with a conical? Does nobody every wonder why people back in the day did not use these? They were very well known by the 1840s. But they don't really accomplish much and they DO move off the powder. This is the reason that the 58 Rifle muskets were proved with 200 gr of powder and a minie spaced TWO INCHES off the powder. They KNEW they moved. There never was a Minie Ball Carbine for the cavalry for this reason. They would unload themselves if carried horse back with a carbine sling. The same is true for any smooth bore carbine used in this manner and there are journal entries by cavalry officers complaining about it. This in "Firearms of the American West 1803-1865 By Worman and Garavaglia. I have a friend in PA who met a ML hunter in the woods with a bullet protruding 1/2 way out the muzzle. Is this safe?
I started hunting with muzzleloaders in 1966. I was building by 1968.
I have shot deer, both species, elk, antelope. I have shot deer with lead bullets in every diameter the Sharps rifle company ever made, GG and PP in weights down to 270 grains. I have killed deer and a Black Bear with a Sharps percussion Carbine with the 'Christmas Tree Bullet" (it would shoot through deer lengthwise. I have shot or seen shot deer with RBs from 45 to 67 caliber at various ranges and powder charges. My son killed his first deer with a 45 flint with 45 gr of FFF. One shot kill. Ball struck the hide on the far side and the Mule Deer buck ran the normal 50 yards or so and piled. I have built a 45 caliber underhammer rifle to use a Lyman 457125 (about 520 gr cast soft) Ron Long cut the barrel to a .455 BORE so the bullet could be thumb started. It would shoot pretty well to 1000+ but would gas cut a nipple in about 10-15 shots or less with 70 gr of powder.
My point is all this is that the conical in only needed between peoples ears. Unless someone insists on hunting deer with a 36 caliber. Need more power? Use a bigger ball. The downsides to conicals out weights any perceived advantage.

 

[bang]

Given all rifles eat different a sure way to get your particular rifle ranged is to shoot to get on target at 50 yards. Then shoot 75 yards. Measure the drop. Increase the on target at 50 by that. With most bp rifles, considering the intense arc of the trajectory, this will put it very accurate at 100.

 

[rodwha]

It’s been many years, but if I recall correctly he used 2 chronographs at different ranges shooting through the both. But I could be wrong. Maybe he’ll chime in.

Like I said I greatly respect a patched ball. Initially, when I was first getting interested in BP, I didn’t believe a ball would do well beyond maybe 50 yds. But I asked questions, mostly here, and found that despite the very low sectional density they perform well beyond what the numbers would suggest.

I chose .50 cal to begin with as it’s plenty for all of the common things I can hunt in Texas. But given the opportunity to hunt elk I figured I’d move to a conical as it seems a .490” ball just doesn’t seem all that great beyond maybe 50 yds.

For me the conical is only beneficial if it’s breezy and the range exceeds 75 yds, or the range exceeds 125 yds, or the game animal is rather large such as elk or moose (still speaking of my .50 cal).

I’ve been contemplating a .54 cal barrel for larger game though, and 125 yds is pretty far in most instances, though places I’ve hunted here are across fields and because the leases have multiple people stalking is frowned upon. I’ve wanted a barrel topped with a Malcolm scope in something between .40 and .50 cal for shooting as far as 200 yds, and I like the point blank system wanting it within 4” but maybe conceding to 6” and just aiming a little lower on closer shots and a little higher on longer shots.

 

[Eterry]

Back to the op, I started reloading in 79, bought a data handbook, was given one, then got one for Christmas... not one of them was consistent with the others...I decided to pick a load, shoot it, if it groups good load more.
20 years later bought a Chronograph... man my loads were not even close to the book. But i sighted 2 1/2" hi at 100 and pressed on.
Bottom line... range work trumps book work.

As to how worthless the minie ball is... I'm glad this Buck didn't read this post, or he wouldn't have dropped at 20 yards...

 

[rodwha]

Oh, another thing that escaped me at the time, but seems rather pertinent is that when I first went into the med clinic (I hate hospitals and was hoping it was not serious) the doctor was completely shocked and second guessing his findings. He looked at me sideways with a crazed look and said that I was an anomaly in that people with one deflated lung can’t exert themselves by walking much and have a hard time holding a conversation, yet I didn’t exhibit any of that. And that’s with a single lung. The people in the ER looked at me the same way and tested and retested as they did at the clinic. I can see animals being a bit more hardy and what we’d call athletic, and possibly able to continue with a single lung, though I’d assume at greater disadvantage not being able to run as fast or as far.

 

[rodwha]

This may be of interest where the BP loads are concerned:

https://gunstreamer.com/watch/milit...tration-past-and-present_Yb6cmGaaeGDU6jY.html

I was amazed at how well the .44 revolver ball did at such a low velocity which bears the performance of a ball’s capabilities.

Granted the conicals are tested at near point blank, but then they also retain their velocity fairly well.

As you said there’s just not a real need to use a conical within its range limits, but conicals still have a place, and for myself that’s large game with my .50, breezy days with ranges past 75 yds, or ranges beyond 100-125 yds where a patched ball may not be as accurate or useful. To be honest I’ve never shot a deer or hog beyond about 80 yds, but in some places, unless they decided to come within range of a ball, the open fields tend to call for longer shots, which is like to take advantage of if it’s what I’m doing.

 

[Dphar1950]

What book of Elmer’s? All I have from him is Sixguns.

For me, as it was the same lung, they did an additional surgery and lined my chest cavity with something akin to talcum powder that rubbed everything raw and made it heal to itself so if I get another hole it cannot deflate. These holes were very small, much smaller than a projectile such as these. How on earth would 4 large caliber holes all heal up in time to keep an animal alive?

Beats me. I don't know where Keith's account is but I read it either in a book or more likely a magazine article. He wrote a lot of stuff over the years and I read more magazine articles that books. When the guy posted about the deer a few it came to mind. Here is another that I witnessed personally. I shot a deer about 30 years ago. Nice heart lung shot with a BPCR. I went over and took care of the first one I shot then went to the doe. Bullet holes in the right place, but there was green stuff coming out the entry hole. WTH??? I seems that sometime in the past she had been shot just a little too far back. The bullet fragmented on a rib which had healed back but was not normal and there was a 2 1/2" or so hole in the diaphragm. A portion of the stomach had protruded through the hole several inches into the chest cavity and the bullet in the heart region cut the end of this off. Other than this the deer was normal in all respects though we found some bullet/jacket fragments in the hamburger. So there are a lot of strange things that happen. I am sure that the deer likely had bone and bullet fragments the got into various organs but she lived and other than the obvious damage was normal. I did not carefully inspect the lungs or other internals I was POed cleaning the stomach contents out of the chest cavity. But I cannot see a hole that big in the diaphragm not doing something to the lungs.
I shot a WT buck once with a large mass of solidified puss or something very similar in the chest cavity. This was in the digital camera age and I have a couple of photos. I tagged him before I found this. Called the Game Warden and he called the biologist and when they showed up the Biologist says "EEWWW!" . He sent it off to the university and the said it was an infection of some kind. Warden replaced the tag.

 

[Zonie]

Sorry folks but I must ask you to quit showing pictures of animals interior parts in the general areas of the forum.

One of the reasons we added a Hunting forum area is because we had many of our members privately object to having to see bloody pictures in the Percussion, Flintlock and General Muzzleloading sections. Some folks just don't like to see pictures of killed animals.

Claude and the rest of the moderators know this is all a part of hunting so we created the Hunting forums where pictures like the above ones can be shown, figuring that anyone who objects to those pictures should know that a hunting forum area will show them there and just not bother to go there.

Thank's for your understanding. Now, lets get back to talking about ballistics.

 

[Eterry]

I own several 58 muskets, a musketoon, a cut down Zouave (Buffalo Hunter) and the riflings in them are VERY shallow. One is a slow twist, the others are faster, ie. 1-48". In the fast twist shallow riflings it is TOUGH to get a prb to stabilize unless I use under 40 grs of fffg and for them the minie is the way to go. The Musketoon will routinely shoot 3MOA with a .578" minie, which is good enough for me.

As to the minie balls/conicals moving up the barrel...Well, you cant fix STUPID.
If the minie/conical is that undersized/easy to load there's NO WAY I'd carry it afield. The minie's I cast are .001 under bore, the only conical I use is the REAL, and it's last ring is well oversize.

I've never had one move off the powder charge, even one I carried all season (over 2 months in Texas), hunting almost every weekend. I checked it, it never moved.

But your mileage may vary.

 

[rodwha]

The REALs being engraved is why I have them too. Someone has mentioned they’ve found even those have migrated. I’ve yet to test mine.