Barrel Maker

[BigDeutscher]

What is the type of steel used by the real gun barrel makers.
I live in York P.A. and am interested in finding a supply of barrel stock as close as possible
Deutsch

 

[Zonie]

Most of the muzzleloading barrel makers are using 12L14, a free machining low carbon steel.

The "L" indicates it is a leaded steel. The lead serves to act as a lubricant for the cutting tools and the "machine index" in my "Materials Engineering" book is 160 as compared with 65 for SAE 1018 or 1020.

If you can't find 12L14 stock SAE1018 or SAE1020 will work. These are typical low carbon steels.

 

[Stumpkiller]

Green Mountain uses 1137

 

[Bill Hall]

If you're talking about way back when, iron was the norm, at least in the "Ye Olde Gunshoppe" out in the sticks. In Ned Roberts' book, he talks about innovations and experiments for making steel barrels on a large scale, starting from around the mid 19th century. I'd have to read up on that again to get the timeline nailed down better.

Before the time of steel being made on a large scale, it was kind of rare. When it was absolutely necessary to have, like for a knife or hatchet edge, it had to be made by hand in a forge. Quite a process. I'm sure some of these forge guys can give details on this. Iron was more readily available, so was used for just about everything else, including smooth and rifled barrels. Easy to shape, cut, and weld, and less prone to rust, iron actually worked pretty well for forging barrels. I'm told it has a natural vibration dampening quality to it, but who knows.

I hope this helps anwer your question. Bill

 

[matt denison]

"What is the type of steel used by the real gun barrel makers.I live in York P.A. and am interested in finding a supply of barrel stock as close as possible"
Deutsch

Are you going to try making your own barrels now? I wouldn't put it past you to try, you are a very determined guy.

I use and like 12L14, affectionately nicknamed 12L. Like Zonie says it is easy to machine and is easy on tooling. But it has another endearing quallity that no one seems to ever talk about (except Getz who uses it too) As mentioned iron barrels don't "ring" like high carbon steel barrels will. 12L is dead too. What this means for the average shooter is that you can load a wider range of powder in that barrel and still get acceptable accuracy. Ringy steel barrels have a different harmonic with different loads so you have to search for and stick with the sweet spot load. 12L not so much. You can load 65 to 85 grains and still keep 'em in the ten ring.

Another thing to note per Don Getz who has done experimentation "blowing" barrels: He said that the higher carbon barrels shattered when they blew. The 12L simply ruptured. So you might have serious injury depending on where it ruptured but wouldn't have a grenade effect that could injure bystanders.

 

[fm tim]

If you live in York, PA. Just drive up the Susquehanna river and see Getz Barrel Co. in Beavertown, PA

 

[BigDeutscher]

With about all barrel makers 12 to 18 mths behind and the lack of a true Fowler weight barrel I am lookin into going into the smooth bore barrel biz
I have a new friend who has been a machinest for over 40 years and is all into this idea and very willing to help me get started.
RE Davis wont have barrels for their Fine Fusil till next year and Jim Chambers is in the same Boat with his Militia Musket.
After giong to Dixons and seeing all the gun makers I dont think I will have trouble sellin my wares.
Deutsch

 

[matt denison]

I'll take 100.

 

[BigDeutscher]

sent P/M to you

 

[jerrywh]

Believe me when I tell you it's just a hard dirty job. Don't pay much either. imho.

 

[Zonie]

I don't know how you plan to drill the bores but the company I worked at for 40 years used gun drills driven in a dedicated gun drilling machine.

The "drills" consisted of a solid carbide end brazed onto a hollow shaft.
See link http://www.hammco.com/ http://www.sterlinggundrills.com/

Our machines were WW II vintage and the "barrel" spun while the drill did not rotate. The drill was fed into the "barrel" while a massive amount of coolant was pumped down thru the center of it.
The coolant kept the drill cool and washed out the chips.
The machines were over 20 feet long.

We didn't make gun barrels but we did make a lot of very long hollow shafts.
These shafts were used for things like the output shafts for the Turboprops and the main engine tie shafts that held the high speed rotating groups together (often spinning at speeds of 50,000 rpm and higher).

With the availability of machines made in the Far East you can buy something like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B_SmN3xjgxQ&feature=related

I don't know the price but I'm betting a quarter of a Million could get it delivered to your door.


Oh. You will probably need tool sharpening equipment too. Solid carbide drills must be sharpened with diamond grinding wheels. :hmm:

 

[John Taylor]

Many years ago I and another smith were talking to Harry Rimer(Spelling) of Montana rifle barrel about drilling barrels. He started talking about using an old chevy engine block, turned upside down, and using the barrings for the spindle to make a boring machine. This was the time when Jerry Cunningham was his partner. Jerry later went his own way and started Orion barrel company. He then sold some of his equipment to Jim Carpenter, a logger who wanted to make his own barrels. Jerry helped me with ideas on making my rifling machine. Jim bores blanks for me but still has his logging operation to run. I never did get around to making a boring machine, to much other work gets in the way.
A while back McGowen barrel company had a boring machine for sale. I don't have room for it now. If I really needed one I would build it.
Like the others have said, 12L14 is the easiest to machine for barrel steel. Jerry Cunningham made a 300 Win Mag out of the stuff for testing and it held together just fine. He wrote a book about his testing but I have not been able to locate a copy. Another steel that machines nice is 1144 stress proof but it got a bad rep for barrels because it will not button rifle, splits. Another steel that work good is 4150 annealed. I sometimes use it for old Winchester lever guns. Most of the high power barrels are made from 4140, sometimes called gun steel. Douglas heat treats to about 32C and other companies are going closer to 28C. Works good for button barrels.

 

[ohio ramrod]

Sharpening gun drills is really quite simple with a proper gun drill sharpener. I worked for years in the tool room of a hydraulics company and have sharpned thousands of them .We drilled mostly stress proof steel. The sharpening fixtures cost about $2,000. But we sharpened the larger ones on an old Cincinatti model 1( which can be found used in the two to three hundred dollar range.) Using a simple plate with guide bushings. Getting the angles and meeting point of the cutting tips is critical. An optical comparater to check the angles will cost more than the sharpening machine. The gun drilling machines require a high pressure hydraulic pumping system to use the coolant to force the chips back out the bore. It is suprising just how soft the formed tubing that the carbide tips are soldered on is. :idunno: :idunno:

 

[FL-Flinter]

1144 got a bad rap because it work hardens with every pressure cycle until it busts ... but, then again, every alloy works great ... until it fails.

SAAMI on the .300 Win Mag is 64ksi - maximum yield on 12L14 is only 34.1ksi - that leaves a 30ksi deficit without even considering a marginal 40-45% safety factor. I'll pass on that one.

 

[FL-Flinter]

12L14 has harmonics just like every other metal and can be just as picky about loads as any other alloy. Black powder is low frequency and lower yet when pushing a light-for-caliber round ball projectile - because of these conditions the deviation caused by the annular pressure waves and induced vibrations happen at a lower cycle rate allowing for a wider load tolerance no matter what alloy the barrel is made from. 12L14 being a low pressure alloy will show higher peak values in the annular pressure waves for a given load combination when compared to a higher pressure alloy such as 4140 having the same profile.

 

[Stumpkiller]

SAAMI on the .300 Win Mag is 64ksi - maximum yield on 12L14 is only 34.1ksi - that leaves a 30ksi deficit without even considering a marginal 40-45% safety factor. I'll pass on that one.

But you're comparing a cartridge that generates 54,000 cup (65,000 psi) forcing a larger-than-bore-diameter bullet with smokeless powders vs. maybe 6,000 to 8,000 psi for a patched round ball with black powder. 50% the "safety" for less than 15% of the pressure sounds very safe to me.

 

[Zonie]

We aren't talking about SAMMI (or Davis or Jr. :grin: ) We talk about muzzleloading rifles on the forum.

Your Yield data for 12L14 is for hot rolled steel. If the material is cold rolled the yield increases to 60.0 ksi and I'm pretty sure most barrel makers would be using cold rolled stock.

As I'm sure you know, one cannot simply use a materials Tensile strength or Yield strength to determine how much a pressure vessel can take by just using the raw strength numbers.
The crossectional area times the Yield strength (plus some more numbers derived from the design) is what really determines the strength of the vessel.

 

[FL-Flinter]

I'm not, John Taylor is - RE: JT's post about the 12L14 .300 win mag barrel above.

 

[FL-Flinter]

We aren't talking about SAMMI (or Davis or Jr. :grin: ) We talk about muzzleloading rifles on the forum.

Your Yield data for 12L14 is for hot rolled steel. If the material is cold rolled the yield increases to 60.0 ksi and I'm pretty sure most barrel makers would be using cold rolled stock.

As I'm sure you know, one cannot simply use a materials Tensile strength or Yield strength to determine how much a pressure vessel can take by just using the raw strength numbers.
The crossectional area times the Yield strength (plus some more numbers derived from the design) is what really determines the strength of the vessel.

Agreed, the raw strength numbers are the baseline for the material and yes, the crossection of an annular containment will determine the specific working and ultimate strength of the particular device - however - one must absolutely consider the baseline strength value of the given material for all other calculations.

The method in which the shape is formed does NOT change the baseline properties of the material, when it comes to hot vs. cold forming, the difference comes in that cold forming causes "work hardening" of the material and work hardening is bad news for anything that must be capable of handling non-impact shock loading. Work hardening high manganese alloys used for shovel buckets and crusher jaws is one thing, a gun barrel is a totally different application. Thus is why no matter if an alloy is shaped hot or cold, the final resultant properties of said alloy will be determined by what happens to it after the forming process. Both hot and cold formed alloys are typically available: As-formed; Normalized; Annealed; or Quenched & Tempered. Although cold forming increases the material's as-formed strength value, such is achieved by work hardening which induces a great amount of residual stress within the material and for a gun barrel application one desires as little residual stress as possible. Secondly, anyone who relies upon the work hardening value of the material produced by the initial forming process is setting themselves up for imminent failure as has been proven time and again ad nauseam.

 

[John Taylor]

I'm not, John Taylor is - RE: JT's post about the 12L14 .300 win mag barrel above.

I didn't say I was for it, I said that Jerry Cunningham made the barrel and it worked good in his testing. I never saw the barrel, I'm going on what he told me about it.