Barrel marking

[user 55620]

I was asked if I knew what this mark is on the barrel of a gun. I thought it could be a manufacturers logo, but I am not sure. Can anyone identify it?

 

[Comfortably_Numb]

I think It's a british proof mark.

 

[64Springer]

Birmingham.

Per picture heading, 3 would indicate a junior examiner.

None of these proofs show a JD though.

 

[Dale Allen Raby]

Proof mark.

 

[user 55620]

The nearest that I could find is the Birmingham 1868-1925 definitive black powder proof for shotguns. But there is no crown on the mark and it isn’t a shotgun. It has the crown over BNP proof mark. It only appears on the barrel and nowhere else. Could it be a provisional for the barrel?

 

[user 55620]

Birmingham.

Per picture heading, 3 would indicate a junior examiner.

None of these proofs show a JD though.

None of these have a crown. That helps as the information that I have on British proof marks all have the Queen’s crown on them. I have not seen the ones on your list.
Thanks for that.

 

[TFoley]

What is the gun? Rifle or smoothbore? Single barrel, if a shotgun? Or a double? Not a lot to go on with just a single stamp, however well-struck it might be.

Between 1950, when this format was adopted by Birmingham Proof House - A X B over 1, and 1974, Z X B over 1 - the letter 'D' was not in use. The cross mark, BTW, is a stylised pair of crossed sceptres - sometimes having the appearance of swords or flags.

 

[user 55620]

It is on an unmentionable. The tang sight drops into a square hole.

 

[ColonialRifleSmith]

Birmingham.

Per picture heading, 3 would indicate a junior examiner.

None of these proofs show a JD though.

JD may be the new guy. Semper Fi.

 

[Gordoncourtney]

I was asked if I knew what this mark is on the barrel of a gun. I thought it could be a manufacturers logo, but I am not sure. Can anyone identify it?View attachment 194802

 

[TFoley]

JD may be the new guy. Semper Fi.

The stamp is initially a pair of crossed sceptres. On either side of the cross a letter is stamped, depending on the year, as I explained above. The number underneath denotes the examiner. Number 1 is the Proofmaster himself, down to nine. Each inspector has his own number, not ranking, just a number.

Post #8 tells us very little at all, apart from the probability that it has a hexagonal barrel. Your 'clue' that is an unmentionable and that it has a tang sight that drops into a square hole is very tantalising, to say the least, so how about being a little less coy and showing us the whole thing?

 

[user 55620]

Your wish is my command.

 

[user 55620]

The sight is even more interesting. I haven’t wanted to enlarge on my original query as it is an unmentionable and should not be discussed here, but it is a thing of beauty.
This is the full set of proof marks.

 

[TFoley]

Ah, you're right, it doesn't belong on this site - it is a highly-modified and worked-over cartridge-firing rifle that looks a lot like a Remington Rolling Block design - the 45/90 is the calibre and load of black powder within the cartridge. As noted, BP stands for Birmingham Proof, but the actual Proof marks are dubious, to say the least - the lettering is far from sharp and the 'crown' is heavily distorted - unusual indeed on a flat surface.

Being a foreign arm, and depending on the date on which it was converted from the original arm - IF it is a conversion, and not a new-made gun - English proof would have also had the chamber length in inches and the proof pressure in tons per square inch with a little square stamp.

The heavy stippling on the parts of the wood that are used for gripping, and are usually associated with German/Austrian-made target arms, like this -

The fancy chrome-plating and inlaid decoration are, imo, VERY reminiscent of Middle-Eastern style.

Without having it my hands, I'd say that it is probably a Dhara-made/Khyber Pass product of higher than usual quality. Given the slapped-on varnish look and poor wood-to-metal fit, and the bling chrome-plating, this is probably more of a status piece than a shooter.

However, a word of caution. This firearm, if it is in UK, has NOT been proofed for sale in either Birmingham or London, nor does it appear to have been proofed in any of the other fourteen CIP signature nations. ALL foreign-made arms produced outside the CIP regulatory enclave, even those made in the USA, MUST be subject to Proof at the Proof House(s) of the country into which it has been imported. That is not 'advisory' - it is the Law and enacted by the pertinent government to safeguard the standards of SAFE manufacture.

All those nations within the CIP regulatory group have internationally-agreed standards of manufacture and proof.

All such CIP-compliant firearms entering this country are clearly stamped with the country of origin and CIP.

Here is an excerpt from the preface to the CIP documentation -

Firearms proofing Sample of proof marks

Small arms manufacturers and importers within the C.I.P. member countries are obliged to request one of the accredited Proof Houses to perform the proofing of all arms they manufacture or import. No small arm can be put on the market in any of the C.I.P. member states without prior successful proofing in an accredited proof house according to the C.I.P. decisions.

After the proof test and if successful, two or three proof marks are always applied to the main (highly stressed) parts of the arm, namely the barrel, the chamber (when not part of the barrel) and the locking mechanism. A serial number indicating the year of proofing is also marked on these parts. In case a firearm was voluntary successfully tested at a higher than the normally required proof-test pressure superior proof marks are applied on the relevant parts.

Only after that, the arm is released to the manufacturer or importer who can sell it or deliver it, if already sold.

Here is an example of a modern-made [Italian] firearm - needless to say, Italy IS in the CIP -

and here are REAL Birmingham Proof marks for a shotgun - note the shape of the crown -

If you have been sold this firearm, then you have been sold a faked proof firearm, and the vendor will have committed the offence of selling a firearm without Proof. This is a very serious business - for him. A number of us here agree that the crossed sceptre 'proof mark' is spurious - based on the actual documentation that we have from both English Proof Houses.

If you have NOT yet bought it, then I suggest that you walk away, having advised the vendor that it is neither saleable not fireable firearm in UK without having been subject to either Birmingham or London Proof. If he is prepared to stand the cost of Proof, then that is his decision - YOU are not required to pay a bean.

 

[Gordoncourtney]

Ah, you're right, it doesn't belong on this site - it is a highly-modified and worked-over cartridge-firing rifle that looks a lot like a Remington Rolling Block design - the 45/90 is the calibre and load of black powder within the cartridge. As noted, BP stands for Birmingham Proof, but the actual Proof marks are dubious, to say the least - the lettering is far from sharp and the 'crown' is heavily distorted - unusual indeed on a flat surface.

Being a foreign arm, and depending on the date on which it was converted from the original arm - IF it is a conversion, and not a new-made gun - English proof would have also had the chamber length in inches and the proof pressure in tons per square inch with a little square stamp.

The heavy stippling on the parts of the wood that are used for gripping, and are usually associated with German/Austrian-made target arms, like this -

View attachment 195074

The fancy chrome-plating and inlaid decoration are, imo, VERY reminiscent of Middle-Eastern style.

Without having it my hands, I'd say that it is probably a Dhara-made/Khyber Pass product of higher than usual quality. Given the slapped-on varnish look and poor wood-to-metal fit, and the bling chrome-plating, this is probably more of a status piece than a shooter.

However, a word of caution. This firearm, if it is in UK, has NOT been proofed for sale in either Birmingham or London, nor does it appear to have been proofed in any of the other fourteen CIP signature nations. ALL foreign-made arms produced outside the CIP regulatory enclave, even those made in the USA, MUST be subject to Proof at the Proof House(s) of the country into which it has been imported. That is not 'advisory' - it is the Law and enacted by the pertinent government to safeguard the standards of SAFE manufacture.

All those nations within the CIP regulatory group have internationally-agreed standards of manufacture and proof.

All such CIP-compliant firearms entering this country are clearly stamped with the country of origin and CIP.

Here is an excerpt from the preface to the CIP documentation -

Firearms proofing Sample of proof marks

Small arms manufacturers and importers within the C.I.P. member countries are obliged to request one of the accredited Proof Houses to perform the proofing of all arms they manufacture or import. No small arm can be put on the market in any of the C.I.P. member states without prior successful proofing in an accredited proof house according to the C.I.P. decisions.

After the proof test and if successful, two or three proof marks are always applied to the main (highly stressed) parts of the arm, namely the barrel, the chamber (when not part of the barrel) and the locking mechanism. A serial number indicating the year of proofing is also marked on these parts. In case a firearm was voluntary successfully tested at a higher than the normally required proof-test pressure superior proof marks are applied on the relevant parts.

Only after that, the arm is released to the manufacturer or importer who can sell it or deliver it, if already sold.

Here is an example of a modern-made [Italian] firearm - needless to say, Italy IS in the CIP -

View attachment 195103

and here are REAL Birmingham Proof marks for a shotgun - note the shape of the crown -

View attachment 195104

If you have been sold this firearm, then you have been sold a faked proof firearm, and the vendor will have committed the offence of selling a firearm without Proof. This is a very serious business - for him. A number of us here agree that the crossed sceptre 'proof mark' is spurious - based on the actual documentation that we have from both English Proof Houses.

View attachment 195083

If you have NOT yet bought it, then I suggest that you walk away, having advised the vendor that it is neither saleable not fireable firearm in UK without having been subject to either Birmingham or London Proof. If he is prepared to stand the cost of Proof, then that is his decision - YOU are not required to pay a bean.

I quite like it but I am not into bolt action rifles all depends on the price Proof is not worth arguing over , if the buyer is in uk and has bought it ,Pop it into proof house and they will examine and reproof it for around £80 so simple. Birmingham or London done it a number of times Or invest £80 and have it reproofed before purchasing. No idea proofing in USA. Do what makes you happy

Regards from near london

 

[Gordoncourtney]

I would have a stab it’s made in Turkey maybe india Best give it away Ha ha all interesting stuff.

 

[TFoley]

I quite like it but I am not into bolt action rifles all depends on the price Proof is not worth arguing over , if the buyer is in uk and has bought it ,Pop it into proof house and they will examine and reproof it for around £80 so simple. Birmingham or London done it a number of times Or invest £80 and have it reproofed before purchasing. No idea proofing in USA. Do what makes you happy

Regards from near london

'snot a bolt action rifle. The Rolling Block action, one of the strongest ever made, actually locks up immovably as the hammer strikes the firing pin. The SELLER is responsible for getting it proofed, NOT the buyer.

The USA has no Proof Houses anywhere. The individual manufacturers are totally responsible for the safety of the firearms they make, and 'proof' them in house.

 

[user 55620]

It has had a lot of lead through it, judging by the condition of the sights. The bubble on the front sight is missing and the inserts are ‘different’. Slightly smaller than Pedersoli inserts and held in by a dimpled, sprung lever. The tang sight is on a square rod which is held in with a screw. There are three lines on the rod for major adjustments and hieght and windage adjustment on the eye piece. It is a very interesting rifle.
If the moderators keep the thread, I will let you know what happens.
Thank you all for your input.
As an afterthought, for anyone in the uk, did you know that if you have your barrel threaded for a moderator or muzzle brake, it voids the rifle proof and the weapon has to be re-proofed?

 

[Gordoncourtney]

My apology dear boy , I thought we were talking about the above bolt action unmentionable , but I agree with your comments on a rolling block . I gather beware of Egyptian rolling blocks, only a passing comment .Although it’s also the buyer beware, and rude matter does happen. My view is if you are unsure get it re proofed . I am 79 and been fooling around with guns most of my life, not fancied a rolling block, I had the martini and double rifle disease and am still being treated for it, I only hope I can get past Holts auction, without a relapse. Ha ha I now have a grand son to spend my money on, but a couple of double rifles I fancy, nothing in the Ml section I fancy, but always another auction. God bless sleep well

 

[TFoley]

It has had a lot of lead through it, judging by the condition of the sights. The bubble on the front sight is missing and the inserts are ‘different’. Slightly smaller Pedersoli inserts and held in by a dimpled, sprung lever. The tang sight is on a square rod which is held in with a screw. There are three lines on the rod for major adjustments and hieght and windage adjustment on the eye piece. It is a very interesting rifle.
If the moderators keep the thread, I will let you know what happens.
Thank you all for your input.
As an afterthought, for anyone in the uk, did you know that if you have your barrel threaded for a moderator or muzzle brake, it voids the rifle proof and the weapon has to be re-proofed?

Yes, I know that. I live in UK, and was, for almost six years employed as an Expert witness for the CPS and a private investigative organisation in cases relating to the use of firearms or purported firearms in crime where CCTV and other forms of imagery were used. On the bonus side, the UK does not charge shooters a $200 Federal tax for each moderator.