Barrel material

[Trapper Scott]

Real gunpowder and the subs work great in many cartridge guns as well.

I get your point and it was my fault for posting the way I did. My point was to only use black powder or its subs in black powder guns and you are exactly right. If I remember correctly, the 30-30 cartridge was originally designed as a black powder cartridge and there are a great many CAS folks that load cartridges every week with BP for their competitions. I just don't want anyone getting the idea that smokeless powder is in any way acceptable or safe in a BP gun. Winchester ran into this very issue when they came out with a pump shotgun that was designed to use black powder shot shells. A few years later smokeless powder was hitting the store shelves and people started using the new shells in the Winchester guns. As I recall, Winchester had some serious failures and re-designed the shotgun to handle the new powder and made a plea with their customers to bring in the old guns for a brand new one. Thanks for allowing me to clarify the point I was trying to make earlier.

 

[billraby]

There are many cold hammer forged barrels out there suitable for muzzleloaders. Actually any barrel off of any modern gun will work just fine for a muzzleloader. Companies that manufacture muzzleloaders use the steel that they do because it is more than strong enough for the intended use. Smokeless powder is not the intended use. The steel used for the barrel is not the problem. The problem comes from muzzleloading. Smokeless powder is just not suitable for it. A few years ago Savage made a muzzleloader designed for smokeless powder. The barrel was no different than any of the other modern barrels they use. A lot of those rifles exploded with a lot of injuries. That was a bolt action inline rifle. A side lock would have a whole new set of problems.

If you want a 44 inch swamped octagon barrel made of cold hammer forged 4140 you can certainly get one. There are companies that will make it for you. And you can find a gun builder to build a gun with it. Might want to talk to your banker before you start making calls. But it still would not be safe to use with smokeless powder because the strength of the steel is NOT the issue.

Why is it glib to say just move? If it is a marxist iron curtain state then why do you stay there? Large numbers of people are people are moving from California to America every day. If you are an over the road driver you can get a high paying job anywhere in America in about 10 minutes.

 

[1BadDart]

I'm not suggesting using smokeless in a traditional ML. But as a point of discussion having been in the military and around all kinds of FA for 6+ decades it just seems that the Barrel steel in sidelocks should be up to the task by now if only to side step the Marxist restrictions in such states as CA. It's glib to suggest "just move". I'm just look for discussion as to " why not" better steel up to the task instead of never. I live on a shoestring here behind the iron curtain in SoCal. The nearest "holy black" is over 100 miles from me and I can't afford to buy the minimum bulk shipment of 50lbs which is far and away illegal on multiple fronts especially in CA. And as a over the road driver I don't have time to spend my one day off driving 200 + miles for a 2lb limit retail. So please get off your purist high horse and try to understand I'm just looking for options that should be there in this day and age.

I'm pretty sure Grafs ships to California, four pound minimum and around $24 hasmat.

 

[longcruise]

I think Green Mountain barrels are made with 4140 steel and cold hammering would not have anything to do with the end strength of the barrel.

The barrel of a traditional style ml has several weak points by virtue of its design. Even if "safe" loads of 5744 could be determined (not saying they could be), minor errors in charges could be disastrous. It's a fast burning powder. The faster the powder burns the more sensitive it is to even minor variations in charge weight.

Smokeless powder is a widely known no - no in ml guns. With proper procedures it is easily controlled in a modern reloading situation but even there, mistakes are made and the results can crippling. That with the best of steel and design.

 

[GBG]

@JB Books

According to an email response I received this past June from Suzi Williams at The Gun Works Emporium Oregon Barrel Company, they can make their tapered octagon barrels from 4140 steel for an extra fee (at that time $150.)

These barrels are still FOR BLACK POWDER ONLY, or non-nitro-based manufacturer approved substitutes like Pyrodex.

I would include a link but couldn't connect with The Gun Works website at this time . . . a common occurrence with my satellite ISP.

 

[hanshi]

Nothing other than real black powder or approved BP substitutes should even be on the shooting bench while shooting ANY muzzleloader................................................................PERIOD!

 

[Nor'Easter]

My guess is that, as others have noted, it is a system design / physics issue and not so much an issue with the choice of barrel steel or how the barrels are made ie 'hammer forged' etc.. Sam Fadala's Black Powder Handbook includes load pressures. The absolute hottest black powder loads are approximately 30,000 psi, with the much more common loads most shooters use running more like 12,000-15,000 psi. Compare that to median centerfire smokeless powder loads at 60,000+ psi and you can see the two are apples and oranges. A brief survey of the structures used to seal the breach to contain 60,000 psi - one, two or three locking lugs; three rings or six rings of steel; a solid breech toggled into place and retained in or by locking lugs. Now compare that to the breech sealing in a muzzleloader, approximately 1/2" of threads. It's possible to strip out threads with a few hundred foot pounds of torque. A threaded connection is not going to safely contain 20 tons of pressure. Additionally, the brass cartridge casing actually restrains a significant portion of the thrust placed on the breech. Add to that the radical difference in pressure curves between smokeless and black powder - and you can understand why everyone is so adamant that for safety considerations the two systems should be kept separated.

 

[rich pierce]

Pressures higher than black powder gives are going to burn out the flash hole in percussion nipples in a traditional percussion rifle after just a few shots. Then on following shots the pressure will blow back the hammer hard enough to tear it off the tumbler axle and maybe embed it in the shooter’s forehead.

If someone cannot obtain black powder or one of the substitutes that give similar pressure, they should not shoot traditional muzzleloaders.

Here’s another danger: let’s say shooter A has a muzzleloading gun that can handle higher pressures and he uses powders that would be unsafe in most traditional muzzleloaders. He praises the performance to the skies. Shooter B with a traditional muzzleloader just has to try it. Bad outcomes ensue.