Barrels Silver Soldered or Brazed

[Whitworth]

Just quoting the preferred method from my 1950 "Gunsmithing Simplified" by Harold Macfarland. He had only had about 50 years experience when he wrote the book. I've used soldering coppers in the dark distant past, depending on size they can hold a tremendous amount of heat. The old timers did everything with coppers, that's all they had. Always been my understanding hot bluing destroys solder joints by converting the tin in the solder to stannous hydroxide so only brazed double barrels could be hot blued. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong.

 

[Pukka Bundook]

We always called the tool a "soldering iron", and yes, the working part is copper for heat retention.

 

[denster]

Just quoting the preferred method from my 1950 "Gunsmithing Simplified" by Harold Macfarland. He had only had about 50 years experience when he wrote the book. I've used soldering coppers in the dark distant past, depending on size they can hold a tremendous amount of heat. The old timers did everything with coppers, that's all they had. Always been my understanding hot bluing destroys solder joints by converting the tin in the solder to stannous hydroxide so only brazed double barrels could be hot blued. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong.

Soldering coppers were the preferred method in a time prior to the gas fired blow torch and subsequently the hand held propane and mapp gas torches. A large job like relaying and entire rib would best be handled by a couple of coppers heating in a forge while one was being used and an assistant to hand them off. Not something most of us have available today but we all have a handheld plumber's torch.
You are correct hot blueing will attack soft solder.

 

[ZUG]

Hi John,

I don't know what someone else may have used, but this question sparked a memory how local gun shops in the 1950's and 1960's were franchised by the company that made Cutts Compensators and "Add On" Vent Ribs, to install them on modern shotgun barrels. They had a proprietary Epoxy supplied by the company to install them. In the 1980's, I spoke to an old gunsmith who had installed hundreds of those Vent Ribs and Compensators, and he clearly stated none ever came loose in use.

Gus

I worked as a mechanical engineer for a well known aerospace company for 44 years and we used that Hysol product a LOT. Mostly it use was for support tooling and fixtures but not on flight items. It has a very good bond strength when used properly. For my money I would not use any epoxy for this repair. I feel this job should be done as it was originally done and that's with a low melt lead solder - my opinion.

 

[GREENSWLDE]

Most British tubes were soldered with a High tin soft solder as were the ribs.Some used pure Tin. The Belgians Normally brazed them either with silver on Best guns or Spelter (Brass alloy). Some used Heated Copper or Iron rods up the tubes to help give & maintain heat to save constant changes in Soldering Irons (Coppers). As Feltwad says the ribs were wired on with small wedges to tighten the wire and used spacers to keep the tubes spaced correctly. I was brought up in Aston,Birmingham and as a youth with an interest in Old guns I spent a lot of time Mooching around The Gun Quarter as it was up until the 70's where I made friends with many of the Trades Oldies. All the younger men and women had learned different more modern trades in services between 39 & 45 and didn't want the privation of One or Two man firms with antiquated M/cs in Old Napoleonic or Victoria tiny work shop in the back streets of Brum.. My family's factory was next door to what was "SMITHS GUN BARRELS" Works with some of the Old drop hammers and presses still on site. OLD DOG..

 

[Archer 756]

As was stated before Wonder if Holland and Holland would use Epoxy

 

[Eterry]

I doubt they would... but have you PRICED a Holland and Holland lately???

 

[Feltwad]

I doubt they would... but have you PRICED a Holland and Holland lately???

Well a Holland and Holland is not cheap but you are getting a top English gun which has took a least 3 years to build by first class gunmakers who are the best in the world, You can have the continental makers but they are not too the same standard has the English makers.
Feltwad

 

[Eterry]

If the OP HAD a H&H I would certainly recommend sending it back to them for the proper repair. My point is, if you have a $200 gun, (which I have several), is it worth it to spend $500-700 on a proper soldering of the barrels. I believe the old expression is a silk purse from a sows ear.

I have seen a few dbl shotguns with barrels separated and the owner tried to solder, braze, and in one case weld the barrels. All ended in disaster.
If the gun isn't worth the expense of a professional solder/braze, then maybe epoxy is the solution. It certainly beats hanging it on the wall and talking about it in past tense.

 

[John Walling]

I'm loving all your replies. Eterry has a point, this is not a six figure H&H, lol. I've probably got a Ben Franklin into the gun. If you saw some of the other repairs that I have to make you'd have a head shaker. I just bought it to fix up, maybe shoot, maybe not. I'm already working on turning down a .50 rifled barrel and 28 ga barrel to make barrel sleeves for it. One nipple is co.pletely blown out. Plug the barrel with a rounded brass rod of the appropriate size, weld the hole closed, drill and retap. Working on finding a chunk of Maple or Cherry to make a new stock. Does it need it. Not really. Is it gonna be a giant PITA that causes me to destroy several slabs before I'm done. Probably. Am I gonna do it all to a hundred dollar gun anyway, Absolutely, lol. Keep the ideas and opinions coming folks. I'm soaking it all in and I'm sure others are as well.

 

[John Walling]

Oh, and FWIW I think I'm gonna solder the barrels back but these epoxy suggestions are awesome. I already have a few other peojects I plan on utilizing that info for. I also found it strange Potterdield used standard Tin/ Lead solder and not silver solder.

 

[troy2000]

There is only one way and that is too remove the full length of the rib and clean out the rust etc. between the tubes down to the bare metal and re solder the rib using soft solder and fastening down the rib using wire and iron wedges .
Feltwad

Always been a little leery of advice that starts out, "there's only one way..."

With all due respect, there's usually more than one way to skin a cat. But I agree that regardless of the method used, proper cleaning is essential.

 

[denster]

Oh, and FWIW I think I'm gonna solder the barrels back but these epoxy suggestions are awesome. I already have a few other peojects I plan on utilizing that info for. I also found it strange Potterdield used standard Tin/ Lead solder and not silver solder.

Not strange at all. The low temp silver solder only offers a slightly lower temp requirement 400 deg F as opposed to 600 deg F and doesn't flow as well. The high temp silver is actually a braze and requires over 1100 deg F. The standard lead/tin is more than adequate and easy to use.

 

[VADSLRAM]

I think it all depends on what you want your end result to be. Like antique furniture, If you refinish with newer polyurethane products you will decimate the value. Sometimes even cleaning a finish will hurt the value.
So if you want to stay true to it's original form then you need to silver solder it and hope you don't soften the barrels in the process.
On the other hand , even 10 years ago there weren't the products available now. Chemical engineering has given us products with incredible properties in strength, durability and ease of use. If your intent is to be able to shoot it for fun and damn the value, an epoxy will do the job every bit as well and with the right prep probably better than original. We are sending people into space with bonded polymers. Look at Glocks and pretty much every new firearm, composites are everywhere.

 

[ZUG]

The confusion on silver solder and silver braze continues -- here is a You-Tube video that describes the difference and how this person does it - a very good description - start at time 9:36 in the video <>

 

[ZUG]

Try this link <>

 

[denster]

Interesting video but he did mis speak when he said the only difference between silver solder and silver braze was the temperature. There is a huge difference in the strength of the bond. If there were not there would not be a need to braze. I think he meant that both are used to join dissimilar metals but he made it confusing.

 

[Artificer]

Oh, and FWIW I think I'm gonna solder the barrels back but these epoxy suggestions are awesome. I already have a few other peojects I plan on utilizing that info for. I also found it strange Potterdield used standard Tin/ Lead solder and not silver solder.

Though it wasn't mentioned in the video, Potterfield almost certainly was going to "Rust Blue" or "Neidner Blue" the barrels.

Someone else mentioned modern "Hot Tank Bluing" aka "Black Oxide Bluing" is not used with Tin/Lead Solder and that's for two very good reasons. First "Hot Bluing" is EXTREMELY CAUSTIC and if the barrels are left in long enough, the bluing would "eat" the soft solder completely as well as ruining the Hot Bluing Bath chemicals. Second, since the parts of double barrels are very different in size, they will expand at different rates in the 285 degree plus Fahrenheit Hot Bluing Bath. Tin/Lead solder will often/normally FAIL as the parts heat at different rates in those temperatures and the ribs and barrels will come apart.

Iron/Steel Objects held together by Hi Temp Silver Solder or Brazing will hold up to "Hot Bluing," BUT you don't leave them in the bath a long time as the bath will still eat into the silver or brass brazing material. I know this from having "Hot Blued" many target pistols we had Silver Soldered large NM Front Sights to the Slides.

Gus

 

[Feltwad]

One of the worst things too attack soft soldering of ribs be it a antique with Damascus barrels or a modern over and under is the constant use of WD40
Feltwad

 

[Rudyard]

Not that I use WD 40 but that's a supprise. I have once tried to hot blue a solder ribbed gun it et it . I once tried to boil age with Clorox bleach it et the springs .The MS was ok .
Cheers Rudyard