Bedding Your Rifle Barrel

[brayhaven]

This isn't why I and many others on this site and elsewhere do this - We do it to experience what they experienced and do what they did. The fact that guns from several hundred years ago still survive is a testament to the fact that their way worked and worked well. If you wish to "improve" on the old master feel free, but then be intellectually honest and call it a modern gun rather than a traditional gun, even though they may look similar...

Ultimately, if the builder did even a half-way decent job of inletting, there is no need to bed a barrel. A bit like a California beach-bunny - mostly plastic with a superficial resemblance to a human.

I always find it amusing to see people who decry the use of a modern material in their “traditional” muzzle loader. They eschew the use of epoxy, or stock stains and finishes. and extoll the “old ways”..
All the while proudly displaying their rifle, with a barrel made with modern alloys, CNC milling and surface finishing, rifled with tungsten carbide cutters, auto indexed, electric machinery with modern investment cast fittings, sights, etc. screws madeon automatic screw machines. The lock made with computerized machining methods, MIM internal parts, springs etc, & made with vacuum, computer controlled heat treatment, of modern alloys, etc etc etc.. . But hey that’s the way the ole masters did it.. Nothing “ modern” in my gun. ..

 

[Black Hand]

I always find it amusing to see people who decry the use of a modern material in their “traditional” muzzle loader. They eschew the use of epoxy, or stock stains and finishes. and extoll the “old ways”..
All the while proudly displaying their rifle, with a barrel made with modern alloys, CNC milling and surface finishing, rifled with tungsten carbide cutters, auto indexed, electric machinery with modern investment cast fittings, sights, etc. screws madeon automatic screw machines. The lock made with computerized machining methods, MIM internal parts, springs etc, & made with vacuum, computer controlled heat treatment, of modern alloys, etc etc etc.. . But hey that’s the way the ole masters did it.. Nothing “ modern” in my gun. ..

You have entirely missed the point and thrown up the most common (and incorrect) view extolled by those who don't understand the concept. Yes - modern alloys and machinery may have been used to make the parts, but the guns are still assembled in a period way (even in the day, bulk parts such as barrel and locks were manufactured by skilled workers using the machinery of the day and purchased by those who assembled the guns) from replicas of the parts used originally (perhaps slightly more refined, but still replicas of period parts). The use of epoxy bedding compound is a modern idea using a modern material.

But I can see that you will insist that your modern & "improved" way is the BEST way and that this conversation won't get anywhere. You are welcome to build your modern guns and I will do it the way they did it in the day. I derive my satisfaction doing it the original way, to experience the challenges & successes they experienced.

My linen shirt made from linen cloth woven on modern looms and hand-sewn with linen thread spun with modern machinery is indistinguishable in all respects from a shirt made 200 years ago (OK, I use a modern needle, but they made needles back then too). Can't say that about a gun with a barrel channel full of chemically-formulated epoxy...

 

[Poboy]

I am pretty sure the Crossbow was around long before the muzzleloader.

Dutch

RIGGGHHHT, and those crossbows were just like the modern ones....right?

 

[Black Hand]

I'm nearly as anal about bow hunting. I'm not set up for it, but if I were to do it, it would be a good old-fashioned Fred Bear recurve, not a fancy smancy compound or crossbow. .... or.....heavens sake, the new bolt shooting air guns.

Build your own bow and arrows from the ground-up. Not nearly as difficult as building a muzzloader, but every bit as challenging. The last bow I built pulls 69# at 27 inches and will launch my Dogwood-shafted arrows further than arrows made from commercial shafts with equal accuracy.

 

[brayhaven]

You have entirely missed the point and thrown up the most common (and incorrect) view extolled by those who don't understand the concept. Yes - modern alloys and machinery may have been used to make the parts, but the guns are still assembled in a period way (even in the day, bulk parts such as barrel and locks were manufactured by skilled workers using the machinery of the day and purchased by those who assembled the guns) from replicas of the parts used originally (perhaps slightly more refined, but still replicas of period parts). The use of epoxy bedding compound is a modern idea using a modern material.

But I can see that you will insist that your modern & "improved" way is the BEST way and that this conversation won't get anywhere. You are welcome to build your modern guns and I will do it the way they did it in the day. I derive my satisfaction doing it the original way, to experience the challenges & successes they experienced.

My linen shirt made from linen cloth woven on modern looms and hand-sewn with linen thread spun with modern machinery is indistinguishable in all respects from a shirt made 200 years ago (OK, I use a modern needle, but they made needles back then too). Can't say that about a gun with a barrel channel full of chemically-formulated epoxy...

Not at all, just telling the way I do it, and why and how it works for me. Do it however it makes you feel good. But don’t criticize someone using a synthetic bedding compound while holding up a marvel of modern manufacturing techniques and state of the art materials, as being made the old way.. bedding is not a modern idea. Just using newer material.
Of course guns are assembled by hand. Of modern parts, made with modern computerized machinery and modern manufacturing techniques, out of modern steels, etc etc. just like I use modern bedding compound. Not an “incorrect view” just because you say it is . Just different from yours, which you’re entitled to...
I don’t use bedding because I can’t Inlet. . I was taught by the head of stockmaking at the Colorado school of trades and first head of the gunmakers guild. I did it for a living for awhile till The dust bothered me too much, then just did my own and friends. Muleskinner

 

[Comfortably_Numb]

I always find it amusing to see people who decry the use of a modern material in their “traditional” muzzle loader. They eschew the use of epoxy, or stock stains and finishes. and extoll the “old ways”..
All the while proudly displaying their rifle, with a barrel made with modern alloys, CNC milling and surface finishing, rifled with tungsten carbide cutters, auto indexed, electric machinery with modern investment cast fittings, sights, etc. screws madeon automatic screw machines. The lock made with computerized machining methods, MIM internal parts, springs etc, & made with vacuum, computer controlled heat treatment, of modern alloys, etc etc etc.. . But hey that’s the way the ole masters did it.. Nothing “ modern” in my gun. ..

What a tired old boring statement.
How about this. If I use an old wrought iron barrel, antique lock and mounts, stock the gun all by hand with antique tools, does that some how make the gun some how different than what I'm making now? How about if all I change is to use a few modern chisels and a modern rasp? Does that change what the gun is?
I mentioned way back in this post my experiences with glass bedding but was obviously ignored. glass bedding traps moisture under the barrel and rusts the barrel like crazy because the water has no where to go. With an un bedded barrel the water soaks into the wood and evaporates. A PROPERLY constructed muzzleloader does not benefit in accuracy from glass bedding. BTW I'm completely unimpressed with "I was taught by the head of stockmaking at the Colorado school of trades and first head of the gunmakers guild." In my experience the modern gunmaking schools know nothing of the proper way to make traditional muzzleloaders. And as for the gunmakers gild, I have never seen a bigger bunch of clowns when it comes to muzzleloaders, some truly horrific examples have been built and judged to be marvelous from that group. It's all about flash and ego stroking with that arrogant bunch. Just my opinion.

 

[Va.Manuf.06]

..... glass bedding traps moisture under the barrel and rusts the barrel like crazy because the water has no where to go. With an un bedded barrel the water soaks into the wood and evaporates. A PROPERLY constructed muzzleloader does not benefit in accuracy from glass bedding.

Absolutely true from start to finish. I am a fan of red Acraglass as a glue for repairs but I try- where possible - NOT to use it when stretching a stock on a gun that will be fired. I clean with water and even using great care, there is NO WAY to keep water from running down the outside of the barrel on occasion when cleaning. The water trapped under the barrel in a "bedded" barrel will cause serious rust in a hurry on modern steels. The old barrels used in the day, often of wrought iron, did not rust as easily and were relatively immune to this problem, especially with a properly inletted barrel. Nor will I use modern "plastic" finishes to "properly seal" the wood. ALL traditional oil finishes allow the wood to breath and this is a good thing.

 

[M. De Land]

What a tired old boring statement.
How about this. If I use an old wrought iron barrel, antique lock and mounts, stock the gun all by hand with antique tools, does that some how make the gun some how different than what I'm making now? How about if all I change is to use a few modern chisels and a modern rasp? Does that change what the gun is?
I mentioned way back in this post my experiences with glass bedding but was obviously ignored. glass bedding traps moisture under the barrel and rusts the barrel like crazy because the water has no where to go. With an un bedded barrel the water soaks into the wood and evaporates. A PROPERLY constructed muzzleloader does not benefit in accuracy from glass bedding. BTW I'm completely unimpressed with "I was taught by the head of stockmaking at the Colorado school of trades and first head of the gunmakers guild." In my experience the modern gunmaking schools know nothing of the proper way to make traditional muzzleloaders. And as for the gunmakers gild, I have never seen a bigger bunch of clowns when it comes to muzzleloaders, some truly horrific examples have been built and judged to be marvelous from that group. It's all about flash and ego stroking with that arrogant bunch. Just my opinion.

I'm curious about your statement purporting that glass bedding traps barrel moisture into the wood where it can't "evaporate"? Wood soak and evaporation increases the chance of stock warp and cracking.
The whole reason stock wood is Kiln dried or left in a rack for several years is to reduce the moisture content to minimize warpage and cracking when made into a gun stock. Once this is accomplished then a state of semi stability is introduced and any means to seal in that low moisture content uniformity is the best way to maintaining the stability.
Originally nut or linseed oil,bees wax, hide glue and often Varnish were the best way to accomplish this necessity. The main purpose was sealing wood to trap the low moisture content to create stability not just appearance.
Many old stocks were actually varnished which when dry was probably the best method of sealing wood ,available at the time as oils are not actually water proof.
Glass bedding, when mixed correctly is water and oil proof and so is some of our modern products like Spar Verathane. The latter is very good at penetration were as the glass bedding not so much unless thinned and driven in with heat.
When used in combination the best aggregate of wood sealing, strengthening and appearance can be realized in a gun that appears totally traditional. The best of both worlds as it were.
I really love the benefits and appearance of an under seal of Spar Varathane , the reinforcement of glass bedding in the breech area and the finish coat of traditional oil.
The good ole days are actually NOW!

 

[Comfortably_Numb]

The water just sits there between the glass bedding and the barrel, it has no where else to go and rust is the end result. This is first hand experience. Also, I have had dozens (or more) antique muzzleloaders apart and have never seen any evidence of finish, grease or wax in the barrel channel or under any other parts. All of this worry about raw wood under parts is a modern thing.

 

[brayhaven]

What a tired old boring statement.
How about this. If I use an old wrought iron barrel, antique lock and mounts, stock the gun all by hand with antique tools, does that some how make the gun some how different than what I'm making now? How about if all I change is to use a few modern chisels and a modern rasp? Does that change what the gun is?
I mentioned way back in this post my experiences with glass bedding but was obviously ignored. glass bedding traps moisture under the barrel and rusts the barrel like crazy because the water has no where to go. With an un bedded barrel the water soaks into the wood and evaporates. A PROPERLY constructed muzzleloader does not benefit in accuracy from glass bedding. BTW I'm completely unimpressed with "I was taught by the head of stockmaking at the Colorado school of trades and first head of the gunmakers guild." In my experience the modern gunmaking schools know nothing of the proper way to make traditional muzzleloaders. And as for the gunmakers gild, I have never seen a bigger bunch of clowns when it comes to muzzleloaders, some truly horrific examples have been built and judged to be marvelous from that group. It's all about flash and ego stroking with that arrogant bunch. Just my opinion.

Well, I’ve never seen any increase in rusting due to bedding. In 45 years building guns. Quite the opposite in fact. Water absorbed into raw wood or poorly sealed wood exacerbates rusting by keeping a wet environment in contact with the metal. I don’t EVER want ANY water soaking into my forend. Properly protecting the barrel from rusting with heavy grease, anti corrosion wax etc.works fine on pinned barrels that are bedded. But as I said, all my barrels come out. And modern steels are no more prone to rust than older twist or fluid type steels. IME, I find the opposite to be the case. As for your trashing of the gunsmithing school, it shows your lack of knowledge. Of course there are some prima donnas in the guild. But there are some of the most gifted and skilled gunmakers in the country. I’ve seen some masterpiece mls made by them, but the basics of wood to metal fit, shaping of wood & metal, handwork are the same regardless of type gun. Same skills, same tools. I don’t think trashing others is the way to enhance your credibility. And I really am not trying to impress you . My stockmaking mentor/instructor was the best gunmaker I’ve ever seen! And you have zero idea who it even was, let alone his skills as a gunmaker. He got 5k labor to make a stock and stayed 5 years behind.. but go ahead and bad mouth if it makes you feel good .

Like it or not, we’re/you’re building a modern gun of traditional design. If you find that boring, so be it.

“An abundance of information can exacerbate ignorance if the information is of poor quality” Tom Robbins

 

[Poboy]

hi there rant over. I can only tell you that age takes its toil and that a strong recurve becomes a personal enemy, so now I give thanks for the salvation of an adjustable bow this still allows an old Hunter to bow hunt but at a greatly reduced range. This is probably the last year for that too, so it's going to be up to the Flintlock to bring home the bacon. It hasn't been all bad, this will be my 52nd year to carry a bow.

This guy actually wanted to borrow $600, which I gave him, and he wanted to give his bow as collateral. I told him, no, not necessary, your life is the collateral, but I'd like to see your bow. Frigging 75# pull Bear.. I couldn't even draw it. Getting old sucks.

 

[Poboy]

BTW... Another point to a way this thread has turned.

Ya know, regardless of the modern advantages we take to get there, at the end of the day, it's still a primitive weapon, subject to those inherent limitations.

Nothing against pure traditionalists, but, I'm bulking up in modern gear, and Fess Parker can kiss my butt.. ( he throws a hatchet like a girl anyway!) Point being, I'm going to use the best of both worlds.

Again, I've went out in the backyard with nothing but a pillow to sleep under the stars, to get the cowboy experience.... but, if they had their " struthers, it'd be to sleep in your bed.

 

[Comfortably_Numb]

I have no credibility, so go figure.

 

[shootrj2003]

Probably does not help much in accuracy,however,unless you planning to shoot in a primitive match where it can disqualify you,it can’t hurt to have a perfect bed for your barrel and as for why I used it,frankly and honestly I made mistakes as a first time barrel inletter that left 4 small small gaps along the barrel that needed to not be there for cosmetic reasons and it was the best looking way to fix it with out getting a bigger barrel,I figured since I did that I might as well bed the whole thing as one big bed is stronger than small patches of epoxy . I did attempt fitting small pieces of maple veneer in but the 5 min epoxy I used had not hardened properly so I redid in a method that I was familiar with from bolt action center fires,and it worked with almost invisible results,except I will always know I screwed up,even if nobody can see it! Lol.next one will be better.

 

[Johnny Tremain]

I bedded my barrel for several reason, but accuracy was not one of them.

The wood was so thin, I made it so it can not get loose and slide to and fro.

Water proofing would be the other.
Here in the Pacific North Wet during rondy and hunting season its real wet.

 

[shootrj2003]

This guy actually wanted to borrow $600, which I gave him,

I bedded my barrel for several reason, but accuracy was not one of them.

The wood was so thin, I made it so it can not get loose and slide to and fro.

Water proofing would be the other.
Here in the Pacific North Wet during rondy and hunting season its real wet.

and he wanted to give his bow as collateral. I told him, no, not necessary, your life is the collateral, but I'd like to see your bow. Frigging 75# pull Bear.. I couldn't even draw it. Getting old sucks.

 

[shootrj2003]

I also have never seen any rust due to glass bedding all t he stocks i have done.un 'll ess muzxleloader dteel is more rust prone but i doubt it.

 

[FlinterNick]

Other than being used for repairs, I don’t think barrel bedding makes a very significant difference in BP gun Accuracy.

I’ve done it on some BP guns with the intent of bolstering up the barrel channel on long guns.