Bench testing a flintlock

[Gordoncourtney]

Much has been said about the "poor" quality of Indian built locks and the extensive repairs requiring them to be brought up to quality standards. I have a pistol I am going thru. TRS has a comparable kit at roughly 3 times the price (kit vs assembled India gun). After dressing and hardening the frizzen the lock "worked" but would crush a flint. 20 shots were great but after about another 10 the flint was about gone.
View attachment 272757
For many this is good, put a flint in go 10-20 shots take it home clean it and new flint. I wanted better so I started tuning, time was under an hour. After tuning I checked location of sparks.
View attachment 272755
Mounting in the vise I once again ran a test of 20 shots to see reliability without cleaning. Simply ignite prime repeat. Only a single misfire but was able to fire by recocking and closing the frizzen.

Continuing on for fun, without touching or cleaning she plowed on thru to 50 shots, no problems. However recocking on #53 the leather had got hard enough to loosen up on the flint.
View attachment 272758
I put the flint back in without cleaning or knapping. As the leather continued to be an issue and I had to retighten a few times. End result 8 misfires due to leather not holding the flint well. 100 shots fired without having to reprime, wipe/clean frizzen, dust/wisk pan, or knap/clean flint.
View attachment 272759
View attachment 272761
I may have stopped at 100 but there is no sign that even dirty like this it will continue to fire.
Overall labor may run half the price of the gun or more but even at that it's considerably cheaper than anything comparable.

Kranks in uk sell Indian locks around £160 I got one off a wall hanger years ago Everything was a bit floppy , but after some work I decided to use it, must say yours sparks better than mine, would I buy one NO!!’n. I bought a couple of 1820 Bess locks on uk ebay around around £260 Anyway photo of Indian lock in a home built rifle , still a wall hanger

 

[Jay Templin]

Why do Indian manufacturers keep making these guns the way they do? BECAUSE THAT’S WHAT AMERICAN COMPANIES ARE WILLING TO PAY FOR. You can’t expect top quality guns for what Middlesex or Veteran pay per unit. But they can’t pay more and still sell a useable gun for $600.
A friend of mine used to import reproductions of penny knives. They looked pretty much like every other reproduction penny knife, but they had much better steel and better fit and finish. He had to sell them at a higher price than most sutlers, though, because his cost was higher, and had to stop because people would rather buy the lower quality ones for less.
Jay

 

[Erwan]

Hi, Gordoncourtney (I'm back ),
How are you?
I can assure you that Indian locks are generally in good working order and that the parts are very close to the original dimensions.
As far as Indian rifles are concerned, it's mainly the woodwork that leaves something to be desired.
If the vent hole is drilled conically, from bottom to top, and in the plane of the pan (rising sun), the shot will always be good: the Indian rifles available are always marked "unsuitable for shooting". In fact, all you have to do is pierce the vent and have the gun tested at the Saint-Etienne proof house (the only one recognized in the Macron's France), which is a legal requirement. Everything else is fine.
I've done this work for several young shooters, and I've never had any bad feedback from them, nor any problems with the locks flints or springs...

 

[Codger Craig Wilcox]

I noticed "heat marking" on the outside of the bend of the cock. Did you adjust the flint angle by doing this, and did you bend it up a bit, or down?

Great work tuning that lock, btw!!

 

[Flint62Smoothie]

Great post and info Commodore Swab!

I agree with you, they can be made 100% shootable with just a little work, making them 110% enjoyable! I guess I've been lucky, as I have had 4 procured from Veteran Arms and none needed anywhere near that level of work. Now 2 were matchlocks, and where else could one get a matchlock for ~$500-$600, besides a custom arm co$ting thousands ... ??? Tell me and I'll go buy one ... LOL!

The other 2 are flintlocks, a British Hand Mortar and a Baker smoothbore, of which Bobby Hoyt later rifled. For the mortar, I would have to spend 4X the price I paid just to get one, starting from a TRS kit. The lock from VA was fine, although I lightened the springs myself to my liking, but it was perfectly shootable 'as is'. For the Baker, Mr. Hoyt checked it out 1st - before doing any work - and even he was impressed, not only with its build quality/construction, and breech plug, but with how straight it was. That lock too only need the spring lightened, again to my liking. The matchlock and smoothbore barrels were proofed by me, via double-ball and double-charge loads.

Otherwise, it's safe to say that too many nay-sayer 'mouthpieces' on here offer opinion without any real hands-on practical or actual experience with such Indian-made arms.

Attached are 2 test reports of DOM (Drawn Over Mandrel) barrels, of which is how the barrels from India are made. Note the test where it survived charges up to 2-roundballs over 400-grain of powder.

 

[Erwan]

Hi, Flint62Smoothie,
THKS for the interesting PDFs.
This explains why I always did, and I say: "You have the gun tested at the Saint-Étienne (another place in the USA, like Gardone in Italy) proof house"...

Here, in Absurdistan, we buy them here: https://www.armae.com/en/categories/4c-19-20-centuries

 

[Commodore Swab]

It,s the 101, 102, that might get you....

Now that it's warmer and I can open up the shop for ventilation I did nothing other than the little cleaning my son did last night so bearing in mind a "little cleaning" but no oil.

So allowing for a night of sitting along with a dull flint I did another 20 shots.

On shot 10 the frizzen wasn't opening completely but she still kept going. 3 misfires but I never reprimed or cleaned.

I have no doubt that cleaning the lock, adding a little oil, and ensuring a good flint will deliver the same results as yesterday. Now to see how a new L&R lock performs.

 

[Commodore Swab]

I ensured a brand new black English flint good and sharp.

First shot the flint refused to fully open the pan but DID ignite the powder.

Second shot ignited some of the spilled powder but failed to ignite the powder in the pan. Also failing to open the frizzen. Next attempt ignited the powder as did the next but failed. Long story short failed the test having fired 5 times. 4 misfires by the 6th shot.
1 ignition
2 fail
3 ignition
4 ignition
5 fail
6 ignition
7 ignition
8 fail-test failure at this point
9 fail
10 ignition
The frizzen is now well worn where it was brand new before.

I chose this lock because it was brand new and hasn't had anything done to it so it was a good baseline. Naturally I will be doing lockwork on this new L&R before it is used.

 

[BuffaloSoldier]

You get what you pay for. You're not getting a Thoroughbred for a plowhorse price.

 

[Erwan]

The flint hits the frizzen too straight and too low as if it wasn't the right size...
Try wedging the flint under the rear behind to give it an angle, and check the strength of the spring of frizzen: it should be firm but still smooth, with no hard spots in its movement.
Have you checked the freedom and spring of this frizzen?
IMHO. Flint seems as if it is not the good one and badly tuned (perhaps the hammer too)...

 

[Commodore Swab]

The flint hits the frizzen too straight and too low as if it wasn't the right size...
Try wedging the flint under the rear behind to give it an angle, and check the strength of the frizzen spring: it should be firm but still smooth, with no hard spots in its movement.
Have you checked the freedom and spring of this frizzen?
IMHO. Flint seems as if it is not the good one and badly tuned...

Knowing by the feel of the lock I knew it would not perform well. I did the best I could eliminating the flint as a possibility as I knew people would blame the flint. Funny how the flint is blamed in the l&r and the lock is blamed in the India.

Regarding the l&r the goal was to compare tuned India to a "better" stock lock. There was no intention of comparing tuned to tuned because then you would be comparing smiths skill. I can say that on the l&r I will be tweaking cock angle and spring tension at least. Moving the flint to hit higher will result in a change of where the sparks are delivered. This can be corrected by changing the angle of the cock. Frizzen spring is too great in relationship to mainspring resulting in the frizzen not completely opening. When I'm ready to use this lock I may share what I do to bring it up to the results of the Indian lock.

 

[Comfortably_Numb]

That's why I don't use L&R locks. They don't work well.

 

[sussexmuzllodr]

Hey im not dumping on you Commodore. Please continue doing what you enjoy.

 

[Rob M.]

I ensured a brand new black English flint good and sharp.
View attachment 272935
First shot the flint refused to fully open the pan but DID ignite the powder.
View attachment 272934
Second shot ignited some of the spilled powder but failed to ignite the powder in the pan. Also failing to open the frizzen. Next attempt ignited the powder as did the next but failed. Long story short failed the test having fired 5 times. 4 misfires by the 6th shot.
1 ignition
2 fail
3 ignition
4 ignition
5 fail
6 ignition
7 ignition
8 fail-test failure at this point
9 fail
10 ignition
The frizzen is now well worn where it was brand new before.
View attachment 272938
I chose this lock because it was brand new and hasn't had anything done to it so it was a good baseline. Naturally I will be doing lockwork on this new L&R before it is used.

Yep , its sad . And now my preferred RE Davis locks for my NW guns ....the price went up and the quality dropped a bunch . Many problems with the last three locks I bought ... Such B.S.

 

[IanH]

I don't know how I missed this! Thanks for taking the time and effort to do a little demo.

Way back on page two someone was dumping on the India locks saying essentially it's not okay to have to tune one to make it work reliably and with expected flint life. My response is "So it's okay to pay twice as much and have to do the same amount or more work to get basic function from an L&R lock?"


Logic and reason are not for everyone.

I see a lot of snobbery among both hobbyists and professionals regarding just about anything and everything. This is no different. Some of my things are the very best, others are very functional and either very cheap or very improvised. The trick is to know the difference between junk and inexpensive, functional whatever. Often we buy what we can afford when we need or want it and cannot always afford the most expensive things. Sometimes we learn the hard way that certain inexpensive things are garbage. Sometimes those inexpensive things serve us very, very well. If you're the type that just HAS to have a new, loaded luxury truck every two years and can afford the payments and insurance.....and never drives dirt roads crowded with mesquite big rocks to get to the hunting fields, or has a $25,000 UTV on a trailer and leaves the truck on the pavement....then good for you. Always buy the best then, whether you can afford it or not. Everything I have is paid for and I spend my limited money elsewhere like on retirement, private school tuition for the kids, live Christmas trees, machine tools, and guns.

 

[Comfortably_Numb]

I charge 60 bucks an hour for labor. So nobody is going to pay me to make a Indian lock work when in the end a chambers or kibler works perfectly right out of the box for 300.

 

[Commodore Swab]

I charge 60 bucks an hour for labor. So nobody is going to pay me to make a Indian lock work when in the end a chambers or kibler works perfectly right out of the box for 300.

That's a bargain considering I know welders that charge 3 times that for sticking metal together.