Benchshooting Troubles

[elarges]

I think I know the answer to this, but would like some feedback.
When it comes to shooting my .45 off a rest, my groups are HORRIBLE...like 8-10 inches at 50 yards horrible!
When I shoot offhand, things tighten up to about 2 inches at the same distance. A two inch group isn't anything to brag about, but it's better.
Here's my thought: Does the 'bucking' or movement (for lack of a better description) of the barrel during firing cause these problems off the sandbag? That would be my only thought. Has anyone had these problems?? Suggestions?
Thanks!

 

[Birddog6]

The first thing I would do is have someone else that is a good bench shooter shoot a group with it off the bench.
It sounds like a shooter problem off the bench, not a rifle problem. :hmm:

 

[chuck-ia]

you say you have troubles???? shooting a 2" group off hand at 50 yards????? if you can shoot a 2" group at 50 yards offhand, I wouldn't care if I could only shoot a 36" group off a rest. is this a flintlock or caplock? doesn't really matter that much, but if with a flintlock, my hats off to ya. flinch

 

[bpollock_sr]

Well your realy not supplying much information, type of rifle,barrellength ect. So let me take a guess at a solution.If you are resting the barrel itself on the sandbags this may be the cause.When shooting from a bench the bags should be under the forarm .

 

[davy]

Well your realy not supplying much information, type of rifle,barrellength ect. So let me take a guess at a solution.If you are resting the barrel itself on the sandbags this may be the cause.When shooting from a bench the bags should be under the forarm .

I have allus be told to support your firearm underneath in your palm, with the back of the hand supported by the sandbag ... in other words do NOT support the barrel or forestock on the sandbag itself. The idea is that you support it the same way with the palm whether benchrest OR offhand! Just a thought. :hmm:

Davy

 

[bub524]

Generally, when you "bench" any rifle, the sandbag or *benchrest* goes under the forearm of the rifle. The second bag goes under the butt stock in front of your shoulder. The right arm lies along side the stock and holds the rifle gently, but snuggly into the shoulder. (for a right hander) The left arm lays on the bench top across in front of the chest. The rifle should be positioned so if you let go of it it will stay in place. The idea is to settle it into the bags so its right on target so there is no human error.
If you do this it should shoot better then you can shoot offhand.
Firewalker
Charter Member TMA

 

[Rocky Johnson]

2 inch groups off hand at 50yds.I can't come close to that with a center fire.Just forget the bench. :winking: Rocky

 

[Stumpkiller]

Generally, when you "bench" any rifle, the sandbag or *benchrest* goes under the forearm of the rifle. The second bag goes under the butt stock in front of your shoulder. The right arm lies along side the stock and holds the rifle gently, but snuggly into the shoulder. (for a right hander) The left arm lays on the bench top across in front of the chest. The rifle should be positioned so if you let go of it it will stay in place. The idea is to settle it into the bags so its right on target so there is no human error.
If you do this it should shoot better then you can shoot offhand.
Firewalker
Charter Member TMA

That's the way to shoot for most accuracy - when benching. But it may cause a substantial difference in the sights when you shoot from other positions. Hunting rifles should be sighted with no part touching a bag, rest or table. Unless you carry such things while hunting. I don't use a rear bag and I rest the back of my hand on the forward bag while holding the gun where I would while offhand shooting. Puts consistant stresses on the stock to where they will be in "field conditions".

I haven't actually shot a rifle from a proper bench for 10 years or better. Deeply bagged or as mentioned above. IMHO the only thing shooting from a bench teaches you is better bench shooting techniques. Removing "human error" isn't a concern because I don't care what the rifle does when I'm not around. I want the best load for when I'm shooting it. :haha:

 

[bub524]

The above is true. However, and this may not be the case here, the best way to see what the rifle can do is to bench it. Then you know that anything else has to come from you and you're technique and shooting habits.
Firewalker
Charter Member TMA

 

[Stumpkiller]

. . . the best way to see what the rifle can do is to bench it. Then you know that anything else has to come from you and you're technique and shooting habits.

I can't argue against the conventional wisdom that benching must be best because it produces the smallest groups from any rifle. It shows the rifle's ultimate potential. But it's like a lab test vs. the "real world." Do I care how many miles to the gallon my car gets on a flat test track without seats or passengers inside? It's more important to me to know how it does on the road with me inside and 100 pounds of stuff in the trunk so I know how far I can go.

I'd rather know what is the best load & technique for my stlye of shooting. Finding out what the rifle can do if I don't touch it does not reveal my faults. I already know the rifle shoots better than I can. The best load at the bench is not necessarily the best load in the woods. If I'm jiggly the one that clears the barrel first may be more accurate. The bench would hide that "flaw", as it would slow ignition or a trigger jerk.

I can see by looking at the target which load is better whether it's a 6" vs. an 8" group offhand or a 3" vs. a 2" group benched in bags, or a 4" vs. 3" group sitting with my elbows on my knees or shooting over cross-sticks or other solid rest.

Benching & bagging gives you a false sense of how accurate you can be with a gun. Does you no good if the gun is accurate but you're not because you did not practice the proper techniques. Benching will teach you how to be a good bencher. IMHO it leads to as many bad habits as it corrects. Holding the gun while resting over the bags gives you a semi-practical application, as you're very likely (and wise) to find a solid rest in the field. It's doubtful you'll find a table and chair and a pile of sandbags and the time to build a soild foundation for the rifle to nest in.

Sorry, just my pet peeve. Seen too many hunters take five shots from the bench, wincing and flinching but hitting the target because the gun was soildly bagged, or even clamped in place(!), and then pack up and head off for a hunt thinking they were set for some hot long range action.

We're not talking the difference between sand-bag rests and offhand in the preceding posts up above. We're talking the difference between holding the gun while resting the back of your hand on a rest (sandbag, machine rest, stump, branch, tree-seat, etc.) with the butt-stock up to your shoulder vs. laying the gun immobile in sandbags.

 

But it's like a lab test vs. the "real world." Do I care how many miles to the gallon my car gets on a flat test track without seats or passengers inside? It's more important to me to know how it does on the road with me inside and 100 pounds of stuff in the trunk so I know how far I can go.

I understand your point, but the reason for testing in a controlled environment (similar circumstances) is to eliminate you having to purchase several cars and drive them yourself in the real world to determine the milage. By looking at the controlled tests you can narrow your search to the cars with the best "lab milage".

It's the same reason we sight-in the rifle from the bench before shooting off-hand.

 

[Stumpkiller]

I wish I got to shoot a bunch of muzzleloading rifles before I chose one. I've only ever bought two new rifles that came with "test targets" in the box ~ both centerfires. Car dealers put the ratings on the windows before you buy. Would be a lot less useful if they waited until you were leaving the dealership and said: "Oh yes, you get this sheet with your car now that it's yours." :grin:

So what do you do if benching gives one result and field shooting gives another? Glass bed it? :hmm:

 

I wish I got to shoot a bunch of muzzleloading rifles before I chose one. I've only ever bought two new rifles that came with "test targets" in the box ~ both centerfires. Car dealers put the ratings on the windows before you buy. Would be a lot less useful if they waited until you were leaving the dealership and said: "Oh yes, you get this sheet with your car now that it's yours." :grin:

So what do you do if benching gives one result and field shooting gives another? Glass bed it? :hmm:

I guess I confused the issue with the car thing.

I meant that once we had the rifle, we would sight it in using a bench, not off-hand. What we do after that is up to the individual, but I don't know anyone who recommends sighting in a new rifle by shooting it off-hand, but I can't say it wouldn't work. :v

 

[PALongbow]

I have to agree stumpkiller. I will be testing my flintlock from a bench to see its true potential but when it comes to sighting in for hunting it will be offhand, leaning against something, kneeling, etc.

Ron

 

[bub524]

I can't argue with your point. My only point is that I like to know what the potential of the rifle is. Then I shoot off hand and figure out what I need to do to make it fit my shooting.
I've owned a few of rifles that I couldn't hit a garbage can lid at 25 yds. with and thought I was having a bad day until I tried to shoot them from the bench and found out it was a mechanical problem with the rifle.
Just my opinion.
Yes, I know of a LOT of guys that go to the range and bench 4 shots once a year and figure they are good to go. Not so. As you say, you have to hold it and shoot it yourself then.

 

[Dave K]

I agree with Bub. I first get the potential out of the gun, then I work on my potential. If you have an inaccurate gun and I add my offhand wavering to the mix, I won't accomplish a thing.

 

My only point is that I like to know what the potential of the rifle is. Then I shoot off hand and figure out what I need to do to make it fit my shooting.

That was my point too. The first step is to see if the gun can even put it on the paper, then work on shooting off-hand.

 

[elarges]

I don't have a problem putting them on paper from the offhand position. In fact, when I shoot offhand from 25 yards, I can usually keyhole two of the three shots, with the third one being in tight. The only problem is that the group (though tight) is high and left. At 25-30 yards, it's about an inch high and an inch left. Fifty yards puts the group about 2 and 2 out of center, but still tight.
I think that it's my own technique problems on the bench, so I will either try to correct the problems...or sight the rifle in according to my offhand groups...or both.
:v

 

[Bob Gular]

When "benching" a flintlock (especially a long one) the front bag should be as close to the muzzle as possible to take any movement caused by trigger pull out of the equation. Try this and watch the groups tighten up.