Bend the hammer or set back the barrel ?

[kyron4]

A coworker brought over a Traditions Hawken cap lock that the hammer does not align with the nipple front to back. The front inside of the hammer cup rubs the front of the nipple, the hammer will hang up on a cap when lowered by hand but has enough force to slam over the cap and fire it when the trigger is pulled. I told him we have two options, heat the hammer and bend it slight forward or set the barrel back. Bending seems the best option but I worry about changing the geometry and not getting a square hit on the nipple or breaking the hammer. Instead of messing up the stock to set the tang back I thought I could mill off about 1/16" or so off the back face of the tang block to set the barrel back enough for proper alignment. This would also center the drum in the cut out in the lock plate , as of now it sits to far forward of center and rubs heavily. Anybody see a issue with this route ? Any input from anyone that has dealt with this issue ? -Thanks

 

[dragnetbill]

You would be moving the barrel wedge key back by the same distance and may create a new problem there.
Are you sure it has the correct nipple installed? A shorter nipple would be the easiest fix.

 

[Muzzle57]

A coworker brought over a Traditions Hawken cap lock that the hammer does not align with the nipple front to back. The front inside of the hammer cup rubs the front of the nipple, the hammer will hang up on a cap when lowered by hand but has enough force to slam over the cap and fire it when the trigger is pulled. I told him we have two options, heat the hammer and bend it slight forward or set the barrel back. Bending seems the best option but I worry about changing the geometry and not getting a square hit on the nipple or breaking the hammer. Instead of messing up the stock to set the tang back I thought I could mill off about 1/16" or so off the back face of the tang block to set the barrel back enough for proper alignment. This would also center the drum in the cut out in the lock plate , as of now it sits to far forward of center and rubs heavily. Anybody see a issue with this route ? Any input from anyone that has dealt with this issue ? -Thanks

I’ve the same rifle. I found the one screw that attaches the lock that is behind the hammer was pushing the hammer outward when tightened. I shortened the screw and now the hammer aligns properly.

 

[tgfrench]

Heat the hammer and move it. Don't try to get it all in the first attempt. I will take a couple attempts. Afterwards reheat and quench to re-harden.

 

[kyron4]

You would be moving the barrel wedge key back by the same distance and may create a new problem there.
Are you sure it has the correct nipple installed? A shorter nipple would be the easiest fix.

Yep, hadn't thought of that, the wedge. Glad I asked before cutting away.

 

[Dusty_Traveler]

Heat the hammer and move it. Don't try to get it all in the first attempt. I will take a couple attempts. Afterwards reheat and quench to re-harden.

If the shorter nipple doesn't help, bending the hammer would be the next easiest thing.

I'm pretty sure it would need to be tempered also. Hammer takes a pretty good beating (is there a pun here? ), tempering helps relieve some of the brittleness that comes with quenching.

 

[ronaldrothb49]

Heat the hammer and move it. Don't try to get it all in the first attempt. I will take a couple attempts. Afterwards reheat and quench to re-harden.

The Hammer doesn't get hardened!

 

[tgfrench]

I can't argue one way or the other over re-hardening

 

[Idaho Ron]

I've bent the hammer on all my TC's. Heat it up and bend it.

 

[SDSmlf]

I can't argue one way or the other over re-hardening

Then why are you telling folks to re-harden something that wasn’t hardened in the first place.

Afterwards reheat and quench to re-harden.

 

[tgfrench]

because i'm not going to argue with you over it

 

[Notchy Bob]

This is an interesting problem. I recently acquired a T/C Hawken that has the same issue... The forward edge of the hammer cup was hitting the nipple. The lateral alignment (side to side) was near perfect.

This rifle does have a short nipple, so adjusting nipple length is not the solution. The hammer swings in an arc that should align with the orientation of the nipple. The arc that the hammer swings through must have a slightly longer radius to engage the nipple on this rifle. Extending or reducing nipple length won't change its angle. Maybe changing the length of the cone would make a difference on some guns, but not this one. The hammer needs a longer reach, or throw.

So, you just heat the hammer and bend it up, right? It isn't that easy. I've done that with lateral adjustment, bending the hammer nose left or right, but bending it up is not so easy. It's difficult to explain, but the physics involved are different. I spent about two hours on this yesterday morning, and managed to get a couple of dings in the hammer that had to be ground smooth with the Dremel tool, and I bent up the cup in the hammer nose so it had to be more or less fixed by judicious squeezing in a vise. Meanwhile, the hammer nose did not budge. My propane torch was on the hammer for over half an hour, and was simply unable to get it red hot.

I put a new tiny grinder bit in the Dremel and cleaned up inside the hammer cup, flattened out the striking face, and make enough relief in the inside of the forward rim of the hammer cup that it now clears the nipple. It slightly "bumps" a percussion cap , but will encase it now, so it will work, after a fashion. However, I am not happy with it.

I got it out again earlier today and studied it, thinking I might even try cold bending. It doesn't need much. One millimeter would help, and 1/16" would make it about perfect. However, I just don't see a way to get enough leverage on it to bend it. I also considered heating the hammer in charcoal, which would absolutely get it hot enough, but then I would have to handle and somehow secure a red-hot hammer and then bend it without doing any additional damage to it. I'm not sure I can do that with the tools I have, but I'm still considering ways to do it.

The T/C hammer appears to have a reach or throw of 1-11/16", from center of tumbler hole to center of hammer cup. Dixie has a Manton-style percussion hammer with the tumbler hole spotted but not drilled, and a reach of 1-3/4". My plan, at this point, is to get one of these and fit it to the lock, unless someone can suggest a better idea.

To recap, "heat it and bend it" is a good suggestion. The problem is that this is not as easy as it sounds. Anterior-posterior hammer adjustment is a whole different problem when compared to lateral adjustment.

As brother @Eric Krewson said in another thread recently, a lot of us read about things and offer advice based on what we have seen or read, without having actual hands-on experience dealing with the problem. I'm sure the OP and I both would like to hear from forum members who have actually dealt with this specific problem, and solved it.

Thanks!

Notchy Bob

 

[Nor Cal Mikie]

Did a barrel swap in a CVA and the hammer wouldn't line up with the cap. Gave it a little shove (left to right) and it lined up perfect. So, hammers must be soft?

 

[Phil Coffins]

A picture of the lock/breech would be helpful.

 

[SDSmlf]

So, hammers must be soft?

Every side lock hammer or cock I have come across seems to have been cast from low carbon steel, just not the right stuff to harden, although they can be case hardened/colored if desired.

As far as bending, add some heat and they will go where you want them to go. Here is a photograph of one with the hammer spur bent away so your thumb will clear the tang sight.

 

[Ames]

This is when building your own caplock has a distinct advantage. You can just drill and tap a new $4 drum and put the nipple where it should be.

 

[TDM]

You might get enough heat on it with a MAP torch. A small forge or oxy acetylene will do it quickly. But I agree with the others, heat and bend is the answer. And no quench is required, just let it slowly cool on it's own.

 

[Notchy Bob]

I'll try to get a photo, maybe tomorrow or the next day. However, with the T/C rifle, you can visualize the forward edge of the hammer cup coming town on the nipple, instead of the hammer cup surrounding the nipple.

I contacted L&R yesterday about possibly fitting one of their hammers as they have several with a 1-3/4" throw, and interestingly enough, the hammer on their T/C RPL lock is one of these. However, Tim advised me that the square holes for the tumbler shank on their hammers are not indexed properly for the factory T/C lock, and the square holes in the L&R hammers are too big for the T/C tumbler. Tim said, "You will need to get the hammer red hot to bend it so propane will not be enough. If you can get it red hot it will bend then let it air cool." I haven't given up on the idea of heating it in a bed of charcoal, and I think I have an idea for a bending jig that may work. Before starting this job, I also located and bought a spare T/C hammer at a reasonable price... Just in case I really screw something up... which has been known to happen. It will need fitting to the tumbler, but maybe I won't need it. As a last resort, I may try the longer hammer from Dixie, as mentioned in post #12.

Just for the record, I have heated and bent a CVA hammer that needed lateral adjustment, using a propane torch. It worked. However, the T/C hammer is more robust and the propane torch was inadequate, and as stated above, making an anterior-posterior bend is different from a lateral bend.

This seems like such a simple thing to do, and maybe it is with prior experience and a well equipped shop. However, it's a job I have just not needed to tackle before, and my "shop" at this point is whatever space I can clear in the garage.

Best regards,

Notchy Bob

 

[deerstalkert]

from everything i have seen, the Traditions all have a drum. rotate the drum counter clock wise a few degrees and forget about bending anything

 

[2 shots]

You would be moving the barrel wedge key back by the same distance and may create a new problem there.
Are you sure it has the correct nipple installed? A shorter nipple would be the easiest fix.

and dont forget the under rib