bending brass

[BigDeutscher]

I am makeing a sheet brass butt plate for my fowler.
how can I make it soft at the bend so It does not crack?
should I put in a relief cut on the inside?
And I see in the flint lock fowler book they show plates that are nailed on...
What kind of nails do you use and where can I get some?
Deutsch

 

[Philip Lebow]

Colleagues,
To soften brass, heat it with a torch (Not to red) , but till
you have a color change on the surface, and quench it
in water. You are annealing the copper in the brass.
Red heat or overheating the brass will burn out the zinc,
resulting in pitting of the brass, or a color change in the
brass with a shift to the red in color. The brass will not oxidize
uniformly, and the oxide will be greenish rather than brown.

mainspring

 

[Vaino]

I use 1/16" thick brass for all my Pboxes and it has to be annealed in order to conform to the stock shape. I heat the sheet stock w/ a Mapp Gas torch to a dull red and then let cool. Some dunk in water for a quicker cool but I'm not in that big of a hurry. Haven't had any problems w/ the "dull red heat" affecting the brass....Fred

 

Also know that brass work hardens rather quickly, and you may have to anneal multiple times if shaping by either bending, or hammering. If you can get in touch with a farrier, he can supply you with some horseshoe nails, probably give you a few. They are a good style for the butt plate.

Bill

 

[longcruise]

how can I make it soft at the bend so It does not crack?
should I put in a relief cut on the inside?

I just did one of those on a small rifle. I too got the brass pretty hot with no ill effects. Like Flehto says, it's not necessary to quench it. Quenched or air cooled, result is the same. Had to anneal mine twice.

 

[gonzomann]

Deutsch - What most everyone said about the brass, heat it red then quench.

As far as the square nails go, you can make them fron 1/8" square steel stock The square nails I make about 3/4" to 1" long, tapered by filing or forging. Pre-drill holes through the brass under size, slightly, and drive the tapered nail mostly through the brass. This will form the square hole. The idea is to have the nail not slip through the brass so that it will draw the brass down tight. Also drill under size pilot holes in the wood for the nails. Hammer the nails down tight into the wood and cut off the protruding portion of the nail and file flush with the surface of the brass.

Curtis

 

[LRB]

Agreed. :thumbsup:

 

[Denny/Oh]

I'm not going to argue with others success if it works for you thats good.

BUT. I never quench brass or for that matter copper,aluminum etc when I need to anneal it. I never get up to red either.

I use a low heat source ,usually a propane torch and heat the piece, usually sheet stock, uniformly over the piece.

To gauge the temperature you use a piece of scrap PINE wood. Not dowel rod or hardwood. Pass the pine wood over the stock like you would strike a match. Just when the wood just starts to burn and turn black thats enough.
Let it air cool or throw it on a heat sink like a vice or metal table. This bringd the metal to about 400 dgrees and anneals most stock. It also is supposed to not change the structure of whatever alloy.

Depending on the bend it just might need to be heated more than once. I had a guy do this to repair a broken wrist on a bess with brass sheet and he was real happy with the results.

 

[paulvallandigham]

Wood burns at 451 degrees F. and Wick's method is excellent for annealing brass. The pitch in pine burns at a slightly lower temperature, and his method gives you that approx. 400 degrees F. temperature you are looking for.

Thanks for the tip, Wick. We have so little pine around here that I never thought about using a pine stick to test my surface temperature on brass when annealing. I learn something new here all the time! :hatsoff: :hatsoff:

 

[LRB]

That wasn't me Paul. I do as Flehto does. Keep it simple. Dull red, air cool, or quench if you want. Doesn't matter. Paul, if you learned anything from that post above, you just learned how to over engineer a simple process.

 

[leslie]

If you happen to be color blind that wood trick is excellent,over engineered or not.

 

[LRB]

True. I did not think about that. Thanks. It is easy to forget such things, when they do not affect one directly.

 

[paulvallandigham]

Also, we all can get in a hurry, and forget to dim the lighting in the shop so we can SEE that red color when we heat the brass. Having a simple way to test the heat( in my case, I will use slivers I cut from 2 x 4 lumber) is a way of checking myself and getting the job done correctly. I do currently have both pine and spruce trees on the lot where I live, so I can keep a supply of sticks handy to do this. But, its a worthwhile testing procedure to pass on to others with the same issues.

My thanks to both you, and Fleto. These are the kind of techniques you simply don't find in books. :hatsoff: :hatsoff: :hatsoff:

 

[Zonie]

If anyone is interested my Materials Engineering book lists dozens of different copper, brass and bronze alloys and it gives the annealing temperature for most of them.

The annealing temperature for most of the wrought materials seems to run between 800-1200 degrees F. Cartridge brass is between 800-1400 degrees F.

Only two (C63800 & C68800) are below 800 and their low temperature is 750 degrees F.

The copper nickle alloys (think German Silver) require temperatures between 1100-1500 degrees F.

Annealing temperatures for cast copper alloys are not given in this book but a Stress Relief temperature of about 400-500 degrees F is listed.

As a point of reference, steels and copper alloys do not give off visible light below 875 F (black red) with 975 F (dark red) being the first to be noticed by most people.
Cherry red is about 1400-1450 degrees F.

 

[Denny/Oh]

over engineered ? really?

 

[LRB]

I just think that's a lot of trouble for a simple process, and I don't believe 400° is enough heat to do a good job of it. You may do as you please. Our opinions differ.

 

[paulvallandigham]

Thanks for the information, Jim. The problem is that without expensive testing equipment, we have no way of knowing what kind of "Brass Alloy" we are buying from any supplier- whether over the internet, or from a local hardware or hobby store. The books do give a bit of clue as to what kind of steel is likely to be found in various common products used on farms, or at home. But, I don't know of a good resource that tells me what brass I am buying at any store. :idunno: :hmm: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

 

[matt denison]

I manipulate a lot of brass - butt plates, trigger guards, thimbles, modify and fabricate stuff from plate, peen brass pins, etc. I have to agree with Wick, don't get all complicated about it. No equipment needed except a propane torch. I just heat it to really damned hot and either let it cool or dunk it depending on whether I intend to handle it right away or not.

I understand that something that is routine for someone who does it all the time can be daunting for someone who has only read about it. So here are my instructions:

Heat the brass until it is really damned hot, then let cool or dunk it, your choice. Easy, simple.

 

[paulvallandigham]

MY experience with bending brass suggests that how much you bend it, and how you bend it may have more to do with whether your brass will develop cracks, than how you soften the brass.

I did it your way when I was a teen, and it worked just fine. :shocked2: :idunno: :surrender: :hatsoff: :hatsoff:

However, I saw other guys in shop class break brass that they were bending, and we have had similar reports here on the forum, relating particularly to brass trigger guards. :shocked2: :hmm: There is such a thing as "Working Hardening" Brass, and other non-ferrous metals.

How to bend brass without work hardening the piece may be the better question to address. NO? :hmm: :v

 

[Zonie]

Brass and bronze cannot be bent without some workhardening occurring. Tis the nature of the beast.