Bess Carbine

[JAFO]

Does anyone know where I can get stats for the Brown Bess carbine? I've seen picts and heard folks talk about it, but cant seem to find any other information on this weapon. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

 

Go to Dixie Gunworks web site and you can find the stats on any of the factory made imports there. The last I knew they called it a trade gun. But it is the same tool you are talking about here. It is made by Pedersoli. It's just like the short land model bess but a lot shorter. If I remember right it has a 30" barrel and is a .75 caliber smoothbore.

 

[mmahlock]

I'm on the road and don't have access to my library but, you might try Red Coat and Brown Bess by Anthony D. Darling. I think I have another book on the pattern dates of the Bess but I don't have the title written down with me.

 

[Rebel]

What do you want to know about it? 30 1/2" barrel, .75 cal., weighs about 7 1/2 lbs. This is for the Pedersoli bess carbine.

 

[JAFO]

Thanks for information guys. I appreciate the quick response.

 

[Many Klatch]

I have one. It is by Pedersoli. It takes a .715 ball and with 90 grains of 2f and .010 patching it will put two balls in the same hole at 25 yards. I have rung a gong with it at 100 yards on purpose, but I think that was pushing my luck.

I have checked Blackmore's book on British Military guns and there are no pictures of a carbine. However, Blackmore does say that Carbines were issued to Artillery, Cavalry and Light Troops at the option of the Colonel of the Regiment. I imagine that there was a lot of non-standard carbines out there at one time.

That being said, the Pedersoli Bess Carbine is about as accurate a copy of something that apparently did exist, but no originals can be found.

Many Klatch

 

[mastrsgt]

JAFO,

From what I've read, the Pedersoli, although a pretty good gun, is fictitious. Britsh carbines were of a smaller cal, approx. .67, while the Pedersoli in .75. If you want to know more about British carbines, DeWitt Bailey's book "British Ordnance Small Arms 1718-1783". It has full descrptions of all the carbines used during the AWI. I guess the question is, what are you planning on using it for? For reenacting it wouldn't be right. For anything else, it could be.

Don R

 

[benvenuto]

quite correct...
muskets were the infantrymans weapon, and carbine the cavalryman's (and by extension the gentleman's). Smaller bore, slightly shorter barrel (37") and attachments for a sling. Similar to the bess, but slimmer and lighter.

 

[JAFO]

I actualy am / was? planning on using it for reenacting. Our group portrays a unit of backwoods militia/spies out of West Tennessee that came down with Andrew Jackson to fight the Creeks. A few of our group use different types of cut dow 'carbine' style weapons and I figured the smaller the weapon, the easier to sneak thru the bush. I do have an East India pattern Bess and love it.

 

[mastrsgt]

I was thinking AWI. I don't know enough about the War of 1812 to say if it would be appropriate. I'm sure somebody else will be able to tell you if a cut down Short Land musket would have been possible.

Don R

 

[Okwaho]

I actualy am / was? planning on using it for reenacting. Our group portrays a unit of backwoods militia/spies out of West Tennessee that came down with Andrew Jackson to fight the Creeks. A few of our group use different types of cut dow 'carbine' style weapons and I figured the smaller the weapon, the easier to sneak thru the bush. I do have an East India pattern Bess and love it.

Actually neither gun would be correct for the Creek wars which terminated with the Battle of Horseshoe bend on March 27,1814. The India Pattern musket was taken into use by the British Government in 1793.Prior to that it was used by the East India Company and I have an original East India Company lock dated 1779.The India Pattern musket did not become an accepted pattern by the Government until 1797 and would not have seen service in America if at all until the War of 1812 and the earliest possible capture date if any would be after the Battles of New Orleans which took place from December 1814 to January,1815.They were basically stopgap muskets hurriedly put into service prior to about 1815 when they began to be a standard production musket and a higher quality gun.Then they were known as New Land muskets. It is generally believed that a number of older muskets of this type were sold to the Mexican Government and used during the Texas Revolution.

As to the so called Brown Bess carbines sold by Pedersoli,they, along with the so called Brown Bess trade guns, are fantasy guns.There were,as pointed by DonR, British carbines.These fall into two categories.First are the guns of carbine bore,generally .66 cal.and with standard barrel lengths. A good example would be the 1760 Light Infantry Carbine with a 42" barrel in .66 cal.It should also be noted that the Short Land Pattern musket{42" bbl and .78 Cal.} used in the Revolutionary War by the Brish was originally issued to Dragoons in 1744 as a carbine and became a standard infantry arm in 1775.
Second were the carbines with shorter{28 3/8" to 37"}barrels.These were issued to Cavalry, light dragoons,Artillery,Serjants of Grenadiers,and Royal Foresters, and perhaps others. There were some issued to Officers with hooked breeches

I do not question that there were some long land and short land muskets which were shortened for various reasons{the so called short barreled Ranger long land muskets of the F&I War etc.} but these were abberations and not a regular British arm as such.Pedersoli is appealing to those who want short barreled Besses regardless of authenticity.

I would suspect that the gun most commonly ised by Tennesseans in the time period and by the group you mention would be full stocked flintlock Kentucky rifles.I doubt guns made in Tennessee would have been seen in any great numbers.1814 is a little early for most Tennessee rifles although a few along with guns from North Carolina,Virginia,and Pennsylvania could have been used. I remember seeing an "A Angstadt" rifle from Berks County,Pa.It had an inlaid plate in the side of the butt listing the battles in which it had been carried and I believe New Orleans was one of them. The gun was found,I believe,in Middle Tennessee.

As always I welcome serious conflicting opinions.
Tom Patton

 

[JAFO]

Thanks. You have indeed answered my questions concerning the Bess. I appreciate all the responses and the information I will gladly pass this along to our reenacting group.

 

[Mike Brooks]

I will gladly pass this along to our reenacting group.

They ain't gonna like it! :winking: :haha:

 

[Wes/Tex]

The short gun made by Pedersoli has a "dragon" side plate, unless there's been a recent change, and isn't something ever used by the British military. The only gun that's really close to it is a piece put together form Long Land Pattern parts with an apple stock and is thought to be a cavalry carbine of the AWI period. Since it has no provision for side swivels, it's thought to have been used in a bucket attachment.

 

[Okwaho]

Wes,I'm assuming you're referring to the "American Cavalry Carbine" illustrated in "The History of Weapons of the American Revolution" by George C.Neuman PP.122-123{M.103}.This is a classic example of a composite arm utilizing parts recovered from other arms made in the Colonies immediately before and during the Revolution. I have always had a fondness for these composite guns and have a nice probably[url] Conn.made[/url] fusil musket which is a composite gun.
I didn't know about the sideplate on the Pedersoli "carbine" so I looked at my sources and couldn't find any issue British arm with a dragon sideplate.I wouldn't,however, be surprised at any part seen on a composite gun.I have another composite gun with its original East India Company flintock in original flint dated 1779{see "Battle Weapons of the American Revolution",P.69} manufactured without a butt piece and its guard was originally installed backwards with the finials shortened.This gun was likely made for service in the Revolution.
Tom Patton

 

[Wes/Tex]

You're right about the composite guns. Obviously, the cavalry carbine is a good example. I especially like those that mix English, French & locally made parts into quite unique guns. I suppose dragon side-plates could have been used if nothing else was available. I guess the "Trade Gun" name they give it allows this but it seems a shame since the gun could be made into a reasonably correct carbine based on existing pieces. Everybody has to have something to fret over! :winking:

 

[mastrsgt]

Wes/Tex

You indicated that the pedersoli "Bess carbine" used a serpent sideplate. Have you seen this? I would have assumed, yeh I know, that it would have used the same side plate used on the Short Land Pattern. They use the serpent side plate on the "Indian Trade Musket" but is it also used on the carbine? I don't have one and I'm not planning on getting one. Just curious.

Don R

 

[Rebel]

The Pedersoli Bess carbine i had had both of the sideplates. If you wanted the Tradegun look you could ad the Serpent plate and it went right over the normal plate.

 

[Wes/Tex]

The ones I've seen had fairly serious carving on the brass side plate. Rebel may be correct since I've never measured that "serpent" plate to see if it's just an engraved version of the standard sideplate. If so, the original plate could be smoothed out or a replacement added in it's place. :thumbsup:

 

[Rebel]

The Serpent was a moulded sideplate that fit flush on top of the stock over top of the other side plate which was inletted.