big velocity change with same charge weight

[Willoughby]

it was a balmy 30 today and I was shooting my 2 TC's over a chrono to find optimum charge weight with Pyrodex RS - a Renegade and a Hawken both 54 cal - the renegade topped out at 100g at 1650fps and the Hawken at 120g at 1800 fps - then I got a different sounding shot that was around 300fps -and missed target completely @ 80yards -this happened twice on both rifles . the Renegade is basically new -second hunting season the Hawken is a older kit gun that I had to get the barrel bored out from 50 to 54 to save the barrel .both are 1/48 twist .all I can think of is I didn't seat the prb good enough? but it seems that would cause more pressure -I dont know - but I'm sure some of you know -thanks in advance for any help with this as I surely don't want it to happen while hunting

 

[Freedom]

Welcome to the wonderful world of Pyrodex....seriously, buy some real powder. Blackpowder rifles shoot best with BlackPowder.

 

[akroguy]

I'm not saying we're real black powder zealots here but....


Who am I trying to kid......YES...yes we ARE black powder zealots.

Seriously, the pyro goes bang but for centuries of proven performance, holy black is the only answer. I've burned pyro, 777 and black but when I head to the range, the black goes with me every time. I do have plenty of pyro cuz it was cheap and plentiful and available everywhere for a long time. Always have a backup plan.

 

[SDSmlf]

it was a balmy 30 today and I was shooting my 2 TC's over a chrono to find optimum charge weight with Pyrodex RS - a Renegade and a Hawken both 54 cal - the renegade topped out at 100g at 1650fps and the Hawken at 120g at 1800 fps - then I got a different sounding shot that was around 300fps -and missed target completely @ 80yards -this happened twice on both rifles . the Renegade is basically new -second hunting season the Hawken is a older kit gun that I had to get the barrel bored out from 50 to 54 to save the barrel .both are 1/48 twist .all I can think of is I didn't seat the prb good enough? but it seems that would cause more pressure -I dont know - but I'm sure some of you know -thanks in advance for any help with this as I surely don't want it to happen while hunting

Any chance you were using different lots of Pyrodex or some stored in two different containers?

 

[Freedom]

Pyrodex needs to be firmly pressed by the projectile for consistency. You probably had a little fouling ring that prevented your ball/bullet from seating firmly onto the powder charge...this makes the load just burp.
It also occurs (even with real BP) when folks use a short-starter while talking, then forget to ram the ball down onto the powder.

 

[Willoughby]

pyrodex from same bottle - bp not available locally- will try to look online for some -Ive used pyrodex for 25 years and this never happened to me before - thanks for the help

 

[Rifleman1776]

pyrodex from same bottle - bp not available locally- will try to look online for some -Ive used pyrodex for 25 years and this never happened to me before - thanks for the help

Glad you had good luck with it. My experience was quite different. I was a pre-market tester for Pyrodex when it was first invented by Dan Pawlak. In my Ruger Old Army, no way, no how could I ever get ignition. Never. In perc rifles ignition was a 'maybe, iffy' thing. I wrote an honest but negative review. Never touched the stuff since. I know changes have been made since then but I'm still a devotee of real black powder.

 

[dave951]

Ditch the pyrodex and get real black powder

 

[PastorB]

Unlike many others, and I am not casting doubt on their experiences, I have used Pyrodex for 45 years with nary a problem. Just shot some Pyro RS this morning that is 30+ years old. No problems and consistent. I have never had a failure to fire (literally thousands upon thousands of shots in every PERCUSSION gun conceivable) nor even a delay, when using Pyro and the cap went off. In my .54's, I use 60 grains of Swiss 3F or Pyro P with (1550 fps w/prb) great success on targets or critters. Your powder charges, while certainly safe, are completely unnecessary IMO. I'm a sissy when it comes to recoil. Use some Pyro P or Swiss 3f, around 60 or 70 grains (volume), and you will be smiling. As much as I have used Pyro successfully over the years, I do nowadays use Swiss 3f almost exclusively, as I am within driving distance of Graf's. I don't feel handicapped if I have to use Pyro, but Swiss is a great powder.

 

[rich pierce]

Not fully seated is my guess. I’ve had that happen with black powder.

 

[Willoughby]

I have a friend who offered me a tin of Gearheart-Owen black powder -he says its about 15 years old -would it still be ok?

 

[rich pierce]

I have a friend who offered me a tin of Gearheart-Owen black powder -he says its about 15 years old -would it still be ok?

Yes. Good for a century if kept dry.

 

[Freedom]

I have a friend who offered me a tin of Gearheart-Owen black powder -he says its about 15 years old -would it still be ok?

Yes, but if you're used to Pyrodex, the old Owen is going to seem pretty underpowered.... it'll be quite consistent and reliable though.

 

[bpd303]

I really dislike Pyrodex only used it once back in the day and it fouled the barrel so bad it took me all evening to get it clean. A much better sub is 777, I have tried it and it's about as close to real black I've found...However I would only use it in a pinch as I've been shooting real black powder since Moby **** was a minnow.

 

[hanshi]

Back when I tried Pyrodex I got outrageously high velocity variations which did not occur with black powder. I finally got to where I consider any sub "iffy".

 

[M. De Land]

Unlike many others, and I am not casting doubt on their experiences, I have used Pyrodex for 45 years with nary a problem. Just shot some Pyro RS this morning that is 30+ years old. No problems and consistent. I have never had a failure to fire (literally thousands upon thousands of shots in every PERCUSSION gun conceivable) nor even a delay, when using Pyro and the cap went off. In my .54's, I use 60 grains of Swiss 3F or Pyro P with (1550 fps w/prb) great success on targets or critters. Your powder charges, while certainly safe, are completely unnecessary IMO. I'm a sissy when it comes to recoil. Use some Pyro P or Swiss 3f, around 60 or 70 grains (volume), and you will be smiling. As much as I have used Pyro successfully over the years, I do nowadays use Swiss 3f almost exclusively, as I am within driving distance of Graf's. I don't feel handicapped if I have to use Pyro, but Swiss is a great powder.

It's been years since I shot any Pyrodex in percussion rifles but living in Alaska I have had plenty of opportunity to shoot it in cold weather and what I found is when the temperature dropped I had hang and mis fires rather often that were not present in warmer weather and the fouling also got worse as the Mercury dropped.
Pyrodex also wanted to clump up in large irregular chunks , in the original containers when stored in the same place that all other smokeless and black powder had no trouble with.

 

[Absoroka]

There are plenty of comments on velocity variations in each rifle, but my recollection is that the Renegade has a shorter barrel than the Hawken and that might be a contributor to the difference in velocity between the two rifles. Barrel length does make a difference.

 

[Iceman]

Just speculating,

-You’re right not ramming the ball down would cause that. Done that a few times.
-Powder bridging/sticking in measure so less than full charge going in?
-Powder spilling when loading and not going down the barrel? Done that a few times to.

That‘s all the guesses I have. Seems that it would be something major happening (occasionally) to give that big of a difference.

 

[Willoughby]

I figure it had to be I didnt tamp it down good nuff or like m D Land said cold affecting powder clumping -it was around 20 that day =lil on chilly side- and Absoroka the renegade is 4 4" shorter and barrel length does affect velocity big time thats why i was a running them over a chrono to see how much powder they could actually make use of - going up 10 more gr proved fruitless -down 10 was 100-150 fps loss -thanks to all -some very mgood points made !