bismuth woes

[ffffg]

I did everything right, ordered my number four bismuth for ducks early.. The dealer called and said they were out, and that they had it when i orderd it. :shocked2: .. I said to keep my name on the order if any shows up.. They emailed me a week later and said they had a bottle (7 lbs of number four) that someone refused and i can have it... :grin: . I got it today, opened it and it looked small.. It was marked number 4 and the bottle looked like it had not been tampered with.. I measured diameter and did a count/oz with it tonight and sure enough its number 5 bismuth shot.. Not worth a darn for big mallards in cold weather and bp velocities.. .. Probabaly ok for widgeons or somesuch.. .. so now i have one and 3/4 bottles of 5 shot bismuth (The other 3/4 bottle is from a previous try out), that is worthless to me,,, expensive shot, expensive shipping paid, ... the worst news is 4s are not available for an unknown future becouse the owner died, and yadda, yadda, yadda... dave..

 

[RetiredMedic]

Having a garage sale?

 

[jbullard1]

:redface: I guess I'm a dummy but what is Bismuth shot?

 

[RetiredMedic]

Bismuth shotgun shot are the answer to a waterfowler’s dream. In ballistic performance, Bismuth shot gives you all the advantages of lead shot with none of lead’s toxic disadvantages. Patterning performance and penetration consistent with lead. Also unlike steel shot, new Bismuth shot deliver maximum lethality, especially at longer ranges. That means more birds in the bag.

 

[ffffg]

bismuth is a little less dence than lead..Number 5 would be fine for large ducks with lead, but with bismuth at 1000-1100 fps i have proven in my conditions (very cold) number 4 will kill them outright or at least knock them down up to 30-35 yards.. Small ducks at that range may be ok with number 5.No promisis. my count for this shot is aprox 177 pellets an ounce.. Blacks wing and clays shows 170 pellets an ounce for number 5 lead.. 135 pellet an ounce for numer 4 lead.. the old number 4 im replaceing is 129 pellets an ounce.. That is i would have liked to have replaced.. but im handleling this like an adult, and have gotten over it......WWWAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!!!!!!!!! :shocked2: :barf: :shake: :cursing: :hmm: dave..

 

[paulvallandigham]

With all Due Respect, Lead has NO " TOXIC DISADVANTAGES ". Unless you suck on a lead ball every day for hours on end. And even then, if you are an adult the increase in lead in the blood is not irreversible.

Shooters and hunters HAVE TO STOP repeating the JUNK SCIENCE :cursing: that lead to banning lead shot for Migratory Water Fowl Hunting. Glen Sanderson, who did the original study, allowed someone to look at some preliminary data, and they used it to yell, " The Sky is Falling " and got Congress to ban Lead shot. When he was finishing his research, he found that he had an error in his mathematical calculations, and his data did not prove any INCREASE in mortality of geese and ducks due to lead shot wounds, over other causes of death( mortality).

BY THEN, it was too late. Glen spoke to as many groups, Congressmen, and Senators, as would let him, but he could not get anyone to accept the fact that the entire law change was based on HIS mistake! :redface: :shocked2: The Anti-hunting, ANTI-GUN groups had control of the issue, and the national media, which is also ANTI-GUN, and Anti-hunting also refused to report the story truthfully. :nono:

But that is no excuse for us to continue to tell ourselves that somehow, Non-Toxic Shot has some virtue, and that if we are true patriots, we will give up lead shot for Bismuth, or other forms of non-toxic shot immediately. SHAME ON US FOR CONTINUING THE LIE! :cursing: :shake: :nono:

Bismuth does not have the tensile strength of lead, and often shatters when fired. Using Smokeless powder in modern shotgun shell, studies have shown that at least the bottom 3 layers of bismuth shot shatter into dust, and you therefore lose those pellets immediately from the shot pattern. So, don't try to tell us that Bismuth is the answer to anything.

With lower velocities, and lower pressure in Black Powder( not the subs) ML shotguns, Bismuth may be able to avoid that propensity to shatter, and we should get better patterns, with more pellets in the pattern, used in open cylinder bore guns, within 30-35 yards. But, if you choke the barrels to get more range with this shot, you are going to see damage done to the pellets that are on the outside of the column as it slams through the choke, and lose those pellets from the patterns, too. Nothing is free. The only kind of barrel that might handle long range loads of bismuths are those that are backbored the entire length, so that they choke the shot down very gradually, as the column is picking up speed, rather than in a couple of inches or less.

I understand that the Bismuth plant is closed following the death of its owner/developer recently, and we are not going to have access to that shot, probably ever again. Getting any of the other approved non-toxic shot that is now manufactured is proving difficult, too. We may have to use steel shot for the time being, and enclose the shot in heavy plastic shot cups to protect our barrels. Not a very happy choice. :cursing:

Please stop spreading lies about guns and hunting. Its bad enough that we have to listen to that from our enemies; we don't need to hear it from each other. :hmm: :thumbsup:

 

[Russianblood]

Bunk science or not, non-toxic shot is the LAW! That's why we're discussing Bismuth. It's the LEGAL alternative to lead.

 

[paulvallandigham]

A law is not a Ten Commandment. It can be changed, if we band together and hollar loud enough. But, first, we have to start spreading the truth about lead toxicity in birds. Lets start with each other.

I have no trouble obeying the law. But this is one time where the Law is an ASS, written by them, and now being enforced by them. The EPA-types have done enough damage to this country. It is absolutely pathetic that they have convinced the Army that lead cores in bullets and shells pose a health risk to people, and that the Pentagon bought into that argument. We are spending hundreds of millions of your dollars converting ammo to non-lead core bullets, mostly zinc. What are we going to do when Zinc prices hit the roof? You cannot appease these Nazis. They want control, and they want to terminate individual freedom in this country. We have allowed them to have their way in the interest of " Protecting the environment" from every imagined threat. Remember the great Ozone layer Hole that caused us to ban certain sprays? How many billions of dollars was spent on that little fantasy? Now, we are told that the hole opens and closes seasonally, and scientists still don't know why? Then, why did we have to go into hock switching are aeresol sprays to a more expensive product? Why have we been spending millions of more dollars to shoot more expensive steel shot, making and buying different steel barrels that will handle steel shot, making and shooting heavier plastic shotcups( that are not biodegradable, BTW) to protect even these barrels, IF there is no actual increased mortality from using cheaper lead shot, in our existing old guns, and barrels?? :hmm:

Maybe the Next American revolution might be a good thing, and maybe its coming sooner than you think. Maybe it should come sooner. We certainly no longer have people in Congress representing anyone but themselves.

 

[kaac1221]

Well said, Paul.

 

[dgold]

I don't want to start an argument about this topic as I am not sure myself of the validity of the claims made against lead shot, but I remember a class I took in 1969 where the text we used, Biological Conservation, written well before the anti-gun guys hit the headlines(1954) included a section on lead shot and the death of waterfowl. It also discussed sterility caused by lower doses, citing several articles written in 1943 and 1951. This idea was not cooked up by some yahoos in the 80's and 90's but has been around for some time. I have mixed feelings about the required use of non-toxic, but I would be less than eager to call it all junk science.
By the way, I have my 7 lbs of #4 bismuth and plan to guard it with my supply of lead shot and roundball.

 

[mart]

Check out this link.
[url] http://www.huntersbismuth.com/home.html[/url]

They have bismuth in spherical form (not called shot [it's explained on the website])in many sizes including 4's. Hope this info helps.

Mart

 

[paulvallandigham]

If you will go back and read that text again, you will find it is talking about sterility in kids who eat lead paint. That is why lead paint was banned in 1955. The VA required all homes where the buyers were applying for a VA loan be inspected and lead paint removed from the walls to qualify for the VA guaranteed Mortgage loan. They still do today.

I have never figured out why its the government's responsibility to see that kids don't eat lead paint flakes, and somehow not the parent's responsibility, but Nanny Government began much before lead paint was banned. I personally take it as clear evidence of child neglect if a kid is so un attended, as to be able to get into and eat anything toxic. When the lead pain literally had to be pealing off the walls, for an infant to get it and eat it, and parents do nothing to remove the chips, or keep their children away from them, I have to question the quality of parenting, not the decision to use a particular paint. Of course, this particular curse seems to be have fallen on large cities, but those cities are suppose to have building codes, and building inspectors, and it seems to me that if those folks were actually doing their jobs, no one would be living in an apartment or house with pealing paint, or chipped paint, and plaster. Again, I don't know how it is that the Federal government had to get involved.

As to waterfowl mortality, that is what Glen was studying for his PhD thesis, which became the junk science that is the basis of the lead shot bans. He continued his study after steel shot was used for a few years, so he could study the affect on fowl from using that shot. He found a slightly elevated number of waterfowl that showed wounds from steel shot, compared to his data for lead shot, and concluded that while there was increased wounding of waterfowl leading to death, the percentage of deaths was well within the annual mortality figures for waterfowl from all causes, and was not adversely impacting the game populations. But, then neither was lead shot. He could not ultimately assign any given number or percentage of deaths due to ingestion of lead shot by waterfowl. The opposite proposition is what was pushed to justify the change in the law. In fact, because steel is lighter, than lead, there was a small increase in the number of steel pellets found in the craws of geese, compared to lead pellets in his prior counts. The real problem occurred because his original trials did not separate out deaths from lead shot wounds, from ingested lead shot found in the craws.

 

[dgold]

I just did as I have the text in front of me right now and it has nothing to do with lead paint.
Now I know nothing about Glen and his work and can not comment on it. Is there a link I can use to find it.
My post was in regards to the fact that the idea about lead poisoning is not new to the anti-gun lobby but has been around, right or wrong, for quite some time. I will just suffer with bismuth until someone convinces the government that they are wrong. I am, however, not holding my breath.

 

[ffffg]

Marc, thats bismuth ingets or pourable round shot, and you have to make your own aloyed shot (I think).. I dont know what tecknically is mixed with bismuth that i bought over the years to make it viable bird shot. but if pure it will shatter in the barrel and shatter when it hits something hard.. It was not the best stuff at first, and i will wait to see what happens with this shotmaker.. I dont belive bismuth is as buisness world viable... tungsten polimer is already on the shelves and it can also be shot thru alot of the barrels that we use, and some of the older barrels, but maybe not all with full chokes or soft steel, as its just too dence or somesuch.. The polimer is plastic coated tungsten or somthing like that.. I DONT KNOW FOR SURE HOW IT IS MADE!! Just what ive heard.. but i do belive bismuth may be on its way out as its not as dence as tungsten.. So its old tecknoligy.. Shotgunning is achanging and so will we.. Some of us insist on using lead and i wont fight that, but we just dont have hardly any pheasants around here close so ill have to hunt a few ducks now and then, and its plenty of fun with bismuth... Im working on selling the number 5 and have some leads on some number 4 that should get me thru until bismuth comes back or the tungsten polimer is up and running... dave..

 

[ronrryan]

I have not been a waterfowler in many years (used to be) and confess complete ignorance here, but maybe others are in same boat. Query: what alternatives exist to bismuth, if any? Can steel still be used? What is dsownside to steel as a substitute, for muzzleloaders? (I assume, damage to barrels,etc.) Thanks for a lesson, Ron in FL

 

[roundball]

For one thing, steel is lighter so they don't carry as well, don't retain energy as well, etc.

As I recall, the rule of thumb to offset this is you have to use 2 shot sizes larger to get the equivalent weight as a lead pellet.
ie: if you would have used lead 4's, need to use steel 2's...and an immediate problem is that the pellet count goes way down when doing that.

So to offset that the next step is to go to a very large gauge with large shot charges, ie: 2oz shot charges in 3" and 3.5" .12ga shells to get the pellet count back up.

And as you mentioned, there are special barrel and choke considerations when using steel shot to avoid damaging the shotgun...and don't let the shells get wet in case the crimp leaks as the whole steel shot charge will rust together like a slug, etc.

 

[ffffg]

Steel may have wounded more waterfoul than lead could have ever imaginied causing problems.. The reasons waterfoul are back is probably becouse of ducks unlimited, not lead shot.. Steel in a bp gun is worse yet, and almost worthless.. The biggest down side is you need to use shotcups,... Ending up with a high teck, low effincency, bird wounding flintlock, in my experience.. dave

 

[CZMark]

1) Thank you, Paul. I've been trying to spread the truth about lead for 25 years.

2) The Bismuth Shot Company began to mix bismuth with tin to alleviate the shattering problem--it mostly worked, although the mix seemed irregular (some pellets would still be quite brittle while others were malleable).

3) An alternative to bismuth, though expensive, is[url] http://ecotungsten.com/shots.html[/url]

 

[paulvallandigham]

Considering the limited bag limits on Canada Geese, the short seasons, its a wonder that anyone hunts geese any more. Only the now quite large daily bag limits on Blues and White Geese- substantially smaller geese than Canadas, makes going goose hunting worth the expense of the trip. And those flocks usually only get down to the USA after January each year, if at all. Duck numbers are up, but the point system certainly has discouraged lots of hunter, adding to the bite on the sport by the adoption of the non-toxic shot rules. I suspect that between Ducks Unlimited, Pheasants Forever, and other outdoor groups providing better habitat, and rest areas all along the flyways, the substantial drop in the number of hunters has also contributed to the increase in the species. Now, we are faced with problems with disease, in the nesting areas in N. Canada, and the Yukon, where the high numbers has stripped the ground of the lichens that feed them, and the higher amount of waste is spoiling the ground, and providing a source of disease. If there is another population crash among waterfowl, it will be because there is too little hunting, and not because there is too much. We have resident flocks of Canada Geese all over Illinois, that do not leave either to fly south, or fly north to breed. I can't believe that this is healthy for the entire species. I never saw a Canada goose on the ground until I was out of Law School, here in the State. Now, every barrow pit, pond, drainage pool, lake and stream has Canada geese camped out all year around.

 

[mart]

fffg,

The bismuth offered by huntersbismuth in the spherical form is listed as 95% bismuth and 5% tin. I am pretty certain it is very close in composition to the bismuth shot you are using. They cannot offer it as shot due to patent considerations. I have read on other sites that shooters are using it with no noticeable difference between it and the former bismuth shot company's product. I would not hesitate to use it in a muzzleloader.

I have used #5's pretty successfully in a 28 gauge modern shotgun for mallards. I was jump shooting small ditches and streams and over decoys on small ponds. I kept my shots in close and avoided low percentage shots(as we should do any way). I enjoyed good success but will admit that I am not a hard driving waterfowler. I love to hunt ducks and geese but only get out a handful of times each year. I get as much fun out of holding out for a few drakes as I do getting a limit anymore. I guess as we mature as hunters the drive to limit out is not as important as how we hunt.

I keep hoping I will get the time this winter to start on a 16 gauge flint fowler so that I can add that element of challenge and satisfaction to my limited waterfowl forays. I will use the huntersbismuth in my modern reloads as well as muzzleloading fowlers when my current stash of bismuth is exhausted.

Mart