Bison caliber and loads

[mahkagari]

I'm brand new to ML. I usually take down bison cows with a .30-06 loaded with 190 grain BTSP's and 50 grains of IMR 4350.

I'm in the market for a ML kit to get some practice building. I'm seeing .50s and .54s in the style I'm looking for. I had a chat with the ML counter guy at the local Cabela's and he said .50s with conicals should be plenty and cited Jim Shockey with his cape buffalo as an example. He also noted .50 bullets and accessories have much more variety available.

Doesn't look like .54 RBs are much more expensive, though it will add up over time. What I don't want to end up doing is getting a .54 for the extra oomph, but then being unable to find decent hunting bullets. The other issue is that the .54s I'm seeing are 1:60 and the .50s are 1:48. Not sure how much of an impact that has.

I don't have a whole lot of confidence that PRBs in that small of a caliber will get through the hair and hide of a bison with enough intact to disable the boiler room.

So, my hope is that some of the .50 varieties can be combined with an accurate powder and barrel twist to do the job and make it a little cheaper for killing paper.

Thoughts?

 

[swathdiver]

You really don't need those fancy hunting bullets. Our ancestors and folks now, do just fine with a lead round ball shot through a slow twist barrel.

A quick search of this and other forums will bring up accounts of fellas who've done what you want to do without using modern technology. Isn't that the point of using the front stuffer?

 

[Rat Trapper]

There is no problem finding 54 caliber balls or conical bullets. You just have to know where to order them from. Or you can just melt and pour your own from a Lee mould. I would prefer a conical like Hornady Great Plains bullet for Bison. Make sure you put a felt wad under the bullet and use 90-120 grains in 54 caliber.

 

[Sean Gadhar]

I'm brand new to ML.

Welcome :grin:

One of the best things here is the "Search" on the tool bar near the top.

I just put in Bison and found; http://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/fusionbb/showtopic.php?tid/292767/

and this
http://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/fusionbb/showtopic.php?tid/287858/

Hope this helps. Hay are you Western Colorado or Back East in Denver :rotf:

 

[coloradoclyde]

What style gun are you looking at?

Doesn't look like .54 RBs are much more expensive

Round balls are always cheaper to buy than conicals..

Beware of advice from Cabelas counter guys.
They are not hired for their expertise and or qualifications...
Cabelas is also not the best place to buy muzzleloaders and or accouterments.

 

[omarick1948]

First buff I shot was with a .54 flinter with a .530 patched round ball and 100 grains of 2F. Big bull dropped at about 70 yards. Grave yard dead.

This happened in 1977.....1:66 twist Douglas barrel 36 inches long.

Seemed to work for me!

Rick

 

[mahkagari]

What style gun are you looking at?

Either the Lyman Trade or the Tradition's St Louis. Both are available in either .54 or .50. Was at Sportsman's last night and they had both in the .50, but I behaved myself until reading more.

Whichever I get, it will be a practice build for when I copy my 3x great grandfather's rifle currently in a museum. (Thread in Gun Builder's Bench.) That one is a .58 Hawken trade style with a single wedge key and a 42"+ barrel. It will need a whole lot of custom parts.

The other info I've seen in historical threads seems to be mixed depending on distance and bullet type. Once upon a time they didn't have fancy boolits, but they were also using all the way up to .72s for their PRBs.

I also saw that Alaska F&G requires .54 minimum OR .45 minimum but with at least a 250 grain bullet weight. That's likely for bulls as well. So .50s closer to 300 should be fine for cows.

The other thing is I don't want to build something that's too expensive to regularly plink with because of needing so much powder, shipping heavy bullets, or investing in casting equipment. Probably much of a muchness between .50s and .54s, though. I have no illusion that the practicality of my museum dream build is going to be for plinking versus lookin' at.

I'm not thinking the .50s need a whole bunch more powder for accuracy over .54s and a decent bullet weight will do the job.

 

[mahkagari]

First buff I shot was with a .54 flinter with a .530 patched round ball and 100 grains of 2F. Big bull dropped at about 70 yards. Grave yard dead.

Great, thanks for the info. Where'd you hit him?

 

[satx78247]

IF I was off to hunt a buffalo, I think that I would be inclined to use nothing less than my "sort of a Remington contract" Zouave carbine in .58 caliber & using my homebrew 530 grain Minie balls, though I wouldn't feel under-armed with a .54 rifle with either PRB or conicals.

just my OPINION, satx

 

[Sean Gadhar]

The other thing is I don't want to build something that's too expensive to regularly plink with because of needing so much powder, shipping heavy bullets, or investing in casting equipment. Probably much of a muchness between .50s and .54s, though. I have no illusion that the practicality of my museum dream build is going to be for plinking versus lookin' at.

I'm not thinking the .50s need a whole bunch more powder for accuracy over .54s and a decent bullet weight will do the job.

I would think twice about the above.

To me it sounds like;
if I use the right bullet
&
if I use enough powder

in a .50 cal. I can get to where the .54 is.

And all of THAT will still just be a "practice build" for when you build you .58?

So :hmm: your thinking about building a .50 because with the right load it could just about be a Bison gun like a .54 that you seem to be talking your self out of because it might be to costly to plink with. After which you will build your .58

No offence, but you sound JUST like this Gadhar guy that was driving himself nuts on the fourm about 18 months ago trying to talk himself into settling for something he ALMOST wanted :redface:

Just an out of the box thought, but why don't you build a dedicated plinker?

Build a nice .32, .36, 40, or even 45 caliber. Then you can learn to build, plink away, build your ancestors rifle and have TWO rifles you have a use for. :idunno: :2


Post Script: That Gadhar guy finally calmed down a bit & ended up with a rifle he LOVES :wink:
But he sure was driving himself :youcrazy: for awhile.

 

[mahkagari]

To me it sounds like;
if I use the right bullet
&
if I use enough powder

in a .50 cal. I can get to where the .54 is.

And all of THAT will still just be a "practice build" for when you build you .58?



Just an out of the box thought, but why don't you build a dedicated plinker?

Yep, that about sums it up. It's going to be a few years before I get to the .58 build. My ancestor used it when traveling from New Mexico to Wyoming with his caravan trading among various Native Americans nations. I ain't harboring any fantasies I'll be getting a rifle-trained horse that'll let me trek back into the canyons and shoot a 42" off his back, much less hanging it in a trade wagon. I totally acknowledge that it will be mainly for lookin' at and showing off to fellow descendants. It's that hot rod project car that after a couple of years of work, you might take it to a track once or twice a year.

I don't expect to be using the practice build regularly for bison. I'd just like the option. Otherwise, yeah, it'll be mostly a dedicated plinker. If however, a .50 is just going to be no way no how enough to do what my .30-06 does, then I'll decide if it's worth tracking down .54 rounds.

It's the same question on the .54:

IF I get a .54 so it can take bison
&
IF I order/make RBs so they cost less
&
IF I can find a lean powder configuration

ALL so that I can use it for killing a bison a couple of times in between using a CF, then it will be worth it to get a .54 to plink with. If neither a .54 or .50 had any hope of taking a bison, then yeah a .32 or something would serve as a practice build and I'd just end up giving it to my daughters for 4H.

But that's where I'm new to this. Will a .54 and a .50 in similar weight and powder perform similarly in accuracy and foot pounds?

 

[hoochiepapa]

I would have no problem taking a buff with my .54 and a round ball. And I would much rather have that than a .50.

 

[coloradoclyde]

I would have no problem taking a buff with my .54 and a round ball. And I would much rather have that than a .50.

:metoo:

 

[Patocazador]

ME THREE !

 

[19 16 6]

Bite the bullet, so to speak. Do .58 now.
What would Auguste Lacome think of you trying to represent his rifle to other decendants with a 50 or 54 instead of what he truly had.
Show them a 58 & they will be suitably impressed with the manhood of both of you by being able to shoot such a big ball out of that dirty great hole in the end of the rifle.
$$$$ You worry too much. Give some luxuries away & put the coin saved to this gun, simple. Time is money, so just a little longer.
In that time of waiting you can look at the second hand market & I bet the ideal gun will appear all nicely made up & ready to go.
O.

 

[mahkagari]

ME THREE !

Any votes that a .50 would do the job?

 

[mahkagari]

What would Auguste Lacome think of you trying to represent his rifle to other decendants with a 50 or 54 instead of what he truly had.
Show them a 58 & they will be suitably impressed with the manhood of both of you by being able to shoot such a big ball out of that dirty great hole in the end of the rifle.
$$$$ You worry too much. Give some luxuries away & put the coin saved to this gun, simple. Time is money, so just a little longer.
In that time of waiting you can look at the second hand market & I bet the ideal gun will appear all nicely made up & ready to go.
O.

LOL, Auguste was renowned as a shrewd trader and passed those habits down to his son along with his business. His son, José Eulogio, was one of those merchants who owned the store, hotel and saloon, rather than get caught up in boom fever in Silverton, CO. I think he'd be right proud that I'm learning the craft before making the investment in a custom .58 and putting attention toward making sure even the practice build is a multitasker.

 

[Big Hammer]

Something as important as a rifle for the mountains is no place to cut corners and scrimp. Quit whining and get a good rifle and be done with it.

 

[mahkagari]

No one has commented on the barrel twist, so I'm curious. I've seen the faster twists, 1:60. Is the larger caliber to compensate for accuracy? Seems like the faster twists available in smaller caliber would perform more accurately.

 

[rodwha]

I'd assume a buffalo and an elk, both being fairly large and tuff, would be similar. With that said I've read of a few using a .50 cal with a ball for elk but keeping the range short (