Black powder percussion gun questions

[3rdShot]

New to this forum, referred here from a bowhunting site.
Trying to get some info on this firearm, I know nothing about muzzle loaders. From the markings on the barrel, it's a Narain Jagannath Sikligar Udaipur model, with 1973 stamped with those markings. From what I can find, i think it is a replica of a Snider Enfield Cavalry Carbine...looks similar to one I saw online. Percussion cap firing system, smoothbore barrel.
Several questions and notes:
1)Notes - I tried to put the rod down the barrel, and it stops about 2 1/2" before the percussion nipple holder (see pic) and the percussion hole was full of crud. This has been handed down among several people, and has been in closets for decades, not sure when it ever had been attempted to be fired. I removed the nipple, and cleaned it of the lint dust that was clogging the hole. Was able to get a length of weedeater string the 2" or so to the obstruction, no powder in the breech, so it appears this is a case of dry balling (found info on that subject, surfing this site yesterday). Without knowing anything about the condition of this weapon, and being brand new to black powder, I am not comfortable trying to load a squib charge to limp the bullet out of the barrel. Will be trying a bullet pulling process to clear the projectile.
2)appears to be missing a side / saddle ring deal compared to the pic I saw online of a similar weapon, and the rod end is different than that one as well.
Is there away to tell whether this is for powder & ball, or can it shoot a shot charge for turkeys, etc?
3)Any idea of value? The one online was also stamped 1973, and was in nicer condition, sold for $404. This one appears to have some missing parts, and has several handling dings in different places along the stock.

Any info is appreciated!

Dave

 

[bang]

I would put some penetrating oil down the barrel.
If you have the equipment you can try compressed air to push projectile out. If you do have good back stop.
I would run a ball puller in and try to pull up a sample of blockage to make sure it's lead. If so I would clean and scrub polish the barrel down to the projectile. Pull the nipple. Put 5-8 grain of powder in it. Replace nipple. Put it on a blanket in front of suitable back stop. Butt against stop. Sand bags or equivalent on it. String tied to trigger. Stand back and set it off. Increase powder charge till projectile is expelled. When you get it out finish cleaning and scrub polishing remaining part of barrel. Run a snug patch down barrel slowly. It needs to be smooth all the way. If you feel dragging on the patch then record distance of interference for further polishing. If it is extremely rough, especially beyond point of projectile, the chamber you might want to have it inspected buy qualified gunsmith and professionally reworked or find another barrel.

 

[Sparkitoff]

First squirt some oil or even water through the nipple and see if it comes out the muzzle. Maybe it has a long patent breach and there is no obstruction. You could put a string or wire through and it is not centered on the patent breach and seems to stop making you think there is an obstruction. Does it need musket caps or percussion caps (and what size)? You'll need to know that to get the right detonation items.

 

[Melnic]

Me (and this is me), If the nipple and lock is pulled, Id blow into the the nipple end. If you don't get easy flow, then its clogged/obstructed.
A long regular (unmentionables type) gun cleaning rod should hit the back end of a patent breech if you question if that is the case.

I definitely would be cleaning up the bore as suggested prior to shooting it out.

You say 2 1/2", thats long enough to hold a charge. The charge could be hard and crusted and may not go off even if you put powder in a nipple.
I would treat it as loaded with powder and ball even if its not.

depending on time and corrosion, pulling the ball could be really hard. Just make sure your ball puller won't put a hole all the way through the ball.

 

[sawyer04]

Back in 81 I came across a Springfield. It had the barrel plugged at the breach with a wood plug. It had been used as a training rifle sometime in it's life and it was common for these old surplus training rifles to be plugged at the breech.

 

[arcticap]

For $11.27 including shipping on eBay, a person can buy a "waterproof endoscope borescope snake inspection camera scope"
that has 6 LED lights and see what's down the bore and the condition of the bore.

It could be double balled or a live load over a dry ball., 2.5 inches is a lot of room.
Without knowing if any possible powder charge is neutralized, it's not recommended to attempt to pull a ball.
It's preferable to used compressed air, CO2 discharger, or a grease zerk.
There are professionals who will help pull a breech plug if absolutely necessary.

 

[ol vern]

I would put some penetrating oil down the barrel.
If you have the equipment you can try compressed air to push projectile out. If you do have good back stop.
I would run a ball puller in and try to pull up a sample of blockage to make sure it's lead. If so I would clean and scrub polish the barrel down to the projectile. Pull the nipple. Put 5-8 grain of powder in it. Replace nipple. Put it on a blanket in front of suitable back stop. Butt against stop. Sand bags or equivalent on it. String tied to trigger. Stand back and set it off. Increase powder charge till projectile is expelled. When you get it out finish cleaning and scrub polishing remaining part of barrel. Run a snug patch down barrel slowly. It needs to be smooth all the way. If you feel dragging on the patch then record distance of interference for further polishing. If it is extremely rough, especially beyond point of projectile, the chamber you might want to have it inspected buy qualified gunsmith and professionally reworked or find another barrel.

No way would I ever shoot a old load. over the years I have found a couple of old shotguns loaded with smokeless powder
just not worth the risk.

 

[Stantheman86]

Dont shoot it out as is, it could be anything in there.

I would pull the nipple, flush out the powder the best I could and then use a ball puller.

 

[bang]

Gee guys. He said he pulled the nipple and ran a piece of plastic cord up the 2 inch difference.
I did tell him to get a sample of the obstruction to make sure it's lead.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

Another trick, IF you pour water into the nipple and it does not run out the muzzle...
In extreme cases of a stuck projectile, take a hand pump grease gun, fit the end of the tube to the threaded nipple socket, screw it in, make a tight fit, and hydraulically push the obstruction out with the grease.

That is an India made copy of a "two band" Enfield rifle, I think, as the barrel is a bit long and the ramrod should be attached to a pivot device at the muzzle if it's a copy of the cavalry carbine. I know this as it's marked "Narain Jagannath Sikligar Udaipur". It might be as old as 1970's vintage. Value from $150 and up. The bore when clear needs to be scoped for pitting, and to take a look at the junction of the breech plug and the walls of the barrel, to examine the tightness of the fit.

LD

 

[3rdShot]

All good info guys, thanks!
I already ran a few oiled patches down the bore, came out with some black & rust discoloration, but no rough-feeling areas as I pushed and pulled the patches through. Sprayed the breech hole real good with gun oil, then fiddled with the weedeater string in the breech/chamber (chamber area does seems to be empty) and slid the rod down the barrel again...looks to be about a half-inch blockage, which is approx the bore diameter, so I'd assume someone ran a ball down the barrel without a charge.

Order of activity this weekend:
-musket cap vs percussion cap mentioned above...need to learn the difference
-rig a drill bit into the end of a dowel, see if I can remove a couple of chips of whatever material the obstruction/bullet is made of. Then either go on to the next step, or get a bullet puller and attempt to pull it that way.
-I have an air compressor, and the hand valve with the rubber tip should seal pretty good in the nipple hole to try to push it out that way. I just happen to have a whole pile of cardboard boxes, so will set up a multi-layer backstop to hopefully catch the bullet or plug. Grease zerk process described above is an option as well...but cleanup sounds like it will be a mess.
-get a bullet-puller and see if I can remove it that way.

Update to follow when progress is made...

I appreciate the help!

 

[bang]

All good info guys, thanks!
I already ran a few oiled patches down the bore, came out with some black & rust discoloration, but no rough-feeling areas as I pushed and pulled the patches through. Sprayed the breech hole real good with gun oil, then fiddled with the weedeater string in the breech/chamber (chamber area does seems to be empty) and slid the rod down the barrel again...looks to be about a half-inch blockage, which is approx the bore diameter, so I'd assume someone ran a ball down the barrel without a charge.

Order of activity this weekend:
-musket cap vs percussion cap mentioned above...need to learn the difference
-rig a drill bit into the end of a dowel, see if I can remove a couple of chips of whatever material the obstruction/bullet is made of. Then either go on to the next step, or get a bullet puller and attempt to pull it that way.
-I have an air compressor, and the hand valve with the rubber tip should seal pretty good in the nipple hole to try to push it out that way. I just happen to have a whole pile of cardboard boxes, so will set up a multi-layer backstop to hopefully catch the bullet or plug. Grease zerk process described above is an option as well...but cleanup sounds like it will be a mess.
-get a bullet-puller and see if I can remove it that way.

Update to follow when progress is made...

I appreciate the help!

If you attempt compressed air you will need a fitting that will screw into the nipple hole. There will be no way to hold anything against the hole with that much pressure. I suggest a piece of pipe threaded to the hole and if you can braze a chuck fitting to it to plug directly into the air line. I'm a bit more aggressive and would do the 5-8 grains of powder and work up from there. If 5-8 doesn't move it at least the pressue will just vent back out nipple. If it moves blockage increase 9-12. But that's me. Just remember if you wind up boring a hole through the blockage then it's a whole other issue. If the barrel has a removable breach plug that might be best way. I've only removed one in my life and all it took was a little heat with a propane torch to free it. But I would go the light powder charge first because it's the simplest. Again, that's me.

 

[Grenadier1758]

I don't recommend using even a light powder charge to blast the ball out. The small charge may not be enough to act like there is an obstruction in the bore, but at this point I don't want to try it. Hopefully you have poured some solvent down the barrel to soak into what may be holding the obstruction. Two inches from the breech plug seems to me that it was loaded, the gun didn't fire, the powder may have been removed and the ball left in place.

Tap the obstruction. Does it move? If it does the compressed air or a ball puller should work. Drill a pilot hole in the ball. You don't want the ball puller to expand the ball making it more difficult to remove. Try compressed air first.

 

[EC121]

If you are going to pull the obstruction, get a good metal rod for the ball puller. Don't risk pulling the end off a wooden rod. Sometimes it takes a good bit of force to pull a ball.

 

[Rifleman1776]

Grease zerk process described above is an option as well...but cleanup sounds like it will be a mess.

Yes, it will be a mess. But, at this point it may be your best option. You don't know what is in there or what the integrity of the barrel is. Mess is better than unsafe.

 

[3rdShot]

Rigged a self tapping screw in the end of a dowel, dug a few chips of lead out to confirm it is a stuck ball. Will fire up the compressor to see if that will move it...have a screw-type bullet puller on the way as well.
More updates to come...

 

[Mad Professor]

Here is a great way to clean up smooth bore/shotgun barrels.

Get a metal cleaning rod fitted with a bore sized bronze brush. Chuck this into an electric drill. Soak the brush in bore solvent/penetrating oil then work the brush up and down the barrel like you were honing a cylinder using the drill. Follow this with a couple of loose patches then repeat.

This works wonders and was a way I used to remove leading from shotgun barrels that had fired foster slugs. Works great to remove/loosen rust too.

Be careful you don't reverse the drill and unscrew the cleaning brush.

 

[TFoley]

Not any kind of a Snider, which is a breechloading conversion of the P53 rifled musket.

 

[Grenadier1758]

Rigged a self tapping screw in the end of a dowel, dug a few chips of lead out to confirm it is a stuck ball. Will fire up the compressor to see if that will move it...have a screw-type bullet puller on the way as well.
More updates to come...

Good, while you are waiting for the bullet puller to arrive, it is time to pour some solvent down the bore to soak into whatever is between the blockage and the barrel. We had more than a few stories related around a recent campfire.

One was about a stuck ball that wouldn't move. It was late in the evening and since no more was to be done, a fairly good amount (1/2 cup or so) of MAP (equal parts of Murphy's Oil Soap, rubbing Alcohol, and hydrogen Peroxide) was poured over the blockage. The next morning, fortified by a good breakfast and some coffee, the solution was poured out, the gun placed in a padded vise, and when the rod was pulled with a gut busting lunge, the ball flew out as if it was greased. Once he staggered back to the rifle and verified nothing was in the bore and the ball was on the ball puller, cleaning continued.

The point here is to use some solvent to loosen up whatever is holding that lead obstruction in place. It can be MAP, WD40, Brake Cleaner, Break Free or whatever, just use something.

Its also time to verify that the tip of your ramrod is properly secured with a pin. I don't like these subsequent threads of how to get a ball puller with a loosened ramrod tip out of the barrel.

 

[45man]

Ball pullers sold are WAAY too fat and they will expand a ball tighter if you even get it to screw in. In the field you will not have air, CO2 or a bunch of cleaners, penetrants to help. I make my pullers with very thin screws in a brass jag, and YES pin the feral to the rod. My screw is so thin it takes little to get it into a ball and they have never failed.
A good way is still to remove the nipple and pick in some FFFFG. Make sure the ball is down and shoot it out.