Ok, so there is a thread on here dealing with the pros and cons of this argument, and I am not going to poke the bear with a stick on that one, but I do have a question which does cross the line a bit. My question has to do with where and how you store your black powder? When I first got into this hobby, and that is what it has always been to me, just a very interesting and fun hobby, I was able to purchase what black powder I needed from the muzzle loading club I belonged to. The pres. of the club would drive out to a little town close to Orem, Utah, where he would get a case or two, depending on how low the club was, from a fellow who purchased for different uses, including to sell to construction companies that still used it for blasting, he had tons of the stuff stored in an underground facility, it was how he made his living. At that time the stuff was selling in a couple of local stores for around $8 a pound, and we could get it for $5.50, then it went up to $6. Over time the dealers locally stopped stocking it, simply too much regulation and liability. The last fellow dealing in it had to have a special little magazine built to certain specifications in order to meet the BATF regs. When his store was damaged in a fire he decided to go out of the business, and that was the end of the local source. In order to buy it now I have to order it, right now from Powder Inc., and there is a five pound minimum, but the listed price includes that hazmat fee so you know up front what it is going to cost. So my friends, where and how do you store 5 to 15 lbs. of explosives? I would really like to know because the silly stuff is not nearly as safe to store as smokless powders, which tend to simply burn and not explode. Here is where we cross over into the bear poking. It is much safer, and in some places legal to store the fake stuff whereas the real is not, especially in the quantities some might be storing it.
Black powder Storage Question
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Never use the fake stuff but all of it can go boom. Years ago I kept black powder in my bedroom closet in army ammo cans. (for whats it worth, the closet was on the wife's side of the bed.) Now I keep it in the garage in my work room in the same ammo cans. I don't worry about it. And lets not forget we all keep gasoline in our garage or where ever.
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Actually it is.
I don't mean to beat a dead horse but this topic has been covered hundreds of times under different headings so I'm sure it's hard to find.
BP is only "explosive" when it has a source of ignition AND it's compressed. Meaning,, a can of bp won't "explode" if/or when it's exposed to a common accidental fire (as a house or garage fire).
Store BP on the floor, if your concerned , not on a shelf, because heat rises (right?)
Unless there is a direct heat/flame/ignition source,, the gradual rise of temp (even above flash point) changes the character of the sulfur content of the BP composition.
Without gettin real heavy science on ya,, the sulfur crystallizes and changes the whole matrix. The stuff will then go off like smokeless,, "foof", no boom.
There may be local City, County, State laws about how much you can have at your residence,, (for god's sakes don't ask your insurance man!,,he has to abide by those same laws)
But common sense and care,,
Usable amounts in several horns and flasks hanging from pegs. Main supply is in a interior wall closet in the heavy cardboard container PowderInc shipped it in.
I get 25# at a time to justify the HazMat fee.
I get 25# at a time to justify the HazMat fee.
drobs
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I store my Black Powder and BP Substitutes out in the garage with the other explosive items - like Gasoline / Propane.
Once I get a shed, I'll move the Gasoline and BP out there.
If I was really paranoid - I'd have a few of these burried around the property for BP Storage:
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00AU67M5K/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20
This might work as well:
http://www.storeguns.com/mono-vaults
Once I get a shed, I'll move the Gasoline and BP out there.
If I was really paranoid - I'd have a few of these burried around the property for BP Storage:
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00AU67M5K/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20
This might work as well:
http://www.storeguns.com/mono-vaults
mine is in the gun cabinet.
I store my BP and smokeless powder in an old steel construction Job box that has dual locking capability in my basement.
Smokeless and blackpowder substitutes are in metal cabinets in building with reloading and bullet swaging presses, dies etc where I reload. Blackpowder is in different building in metal ammo cans in metal cabinets. Dont keep a lot of blackpowder on hand because l dont shoot much now. When I get some builds finished and weather is better will shoot more. Depending on how much I'm able to shoot will determine how much powder I buy next time. Being able to order and get through cowboy action shooters cuts cost. The bulk order they do helps spread cost of hazmat. If a person used enough to order in bulk would be cheaper than some smokeless powders. Hazmat applies to smokeless also, it is spread out by bulk orders of dealers. Have reloaded over 50 years, never considered powder, primers/percussion caps etc dangerous to store. More concerned with keeping humidity down and temperatures from being at extremes. In southern states humidity is high, extreme temp swings caused metal to have moisture condensation form. That is bigger problem for me than how to store safely. Not cheap keeping dehumidifiers running all year to keep powders and reloading stuff dry. Gasoline is more dangerous to store safely than blackpowder.
My shop is behind my house and has one front corner about 20 feet from the back corner of my house. I have all my combustibles in my shop, gas, diesel, oils, cleaners, paint, and of course BP. I feel a little safer knowing if my shop burned down my house would probably be OK if I can protect the exposures. Yep, I have been through fire school a bunch of times and know the process.
Mine has always just sat on a shelf in or near my shop. For the past 15 years my shop is in my under-house (hillside house, walk out basement) garage. The bp and some smokeless stuff just set on a shelf behaving themselves.
Thank you for the science, it is information I didn't know for sure. I am a member of a number of forums, my shooting hobby is rather wide spread, I like muzzle loaders, old breach loaders, like Martini Henry's, trap door Springfields, Snyder Enfield's, and Rolling Blocks. I shoot all of these, some using black powder out of both tradition, and necessity, some of the calibers are not conducive to reloading with smokeless, and there are some safety issues in doing so. I also own a couple of old shotguns I shoot only black powder loaded shells in, again for traditions sake as well as safety for me and my guns. As for black powder firearms I shoot both flint lock and caplock, but all are traditional in design, but I am not a purist, I can't really afford to be. Again, thank you for the information. I did not mean to waste any ones time, or dig up old arguments, if I have I apologize. When we post on any forum, like it or not, we tend to open a door to our likes and dislikes that we might otherwise not expose. I really don't care how others approach this or any other hobby I am into, like riding my motorcycle where I can really get flamed on certain forums for the fact that I ride a bike that isn't built in this country, I am sure most of you see what I am getting at here. What I do like is learning from these forums, getting knowledge that I would not be able to get anywhere else, and for that I am very grateful. Again, I am sorry if I have opened a door I should have left closed, and I will go back to reading more and posting less, that is who I really am.
Old refrigerator in shop works good to store BP, helps keep temperature extremes down a bit. Just a note, black powder can be made without Sulfur, its primary purpose is to reduce the temperature of ignition. I just got through shooting a pound of black that was found in a barn being torn down for the barnwood projects. Nobody has lived on the property for over 40 years and I couldn't find any example of the tin container type that matched until I got back to the 1940's.
Yes it is.
In terms of a fire hazard I'd say a pound of powder is about equal to a 1/2 cup of gasoline. In terms of explosion value as expressed by work, Gasoline is many, many, many, times more powerful.
Almost a century ago or so there was a tractor made that used a 12 gauge shot gun blank to turn over the engine and start it, called the Field Marshal. I estimate that blank took less than 100 grains of powder. It doesn't take very much gasoline to fire a piston over. A couple drops at most.
Here's a video of the tractor.
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Oh gosh your fine, and all of us welcome more questions.
This topic usually does create a vast array of myth/fear based stories. I'm kind of surprised it hasn't taken off on that tangent (yet).
BP storage should be handled with respect and like your question/concern,, some thought should be put to storing/handling larger purchases.
Years ago when I made my first bulk purchase I did the same,, researched and read several forums and found such wide spread opinion,, I figured I'd go ask the pros and stopped down to the local Fire Station. I found out the Fire Chief was a childhood friend so it was easy to ask pointed questions.
His answer was "We don't worry about it".
say's I."Well what should I do?" I asked, "I'm keeping it all in GI Ammo cans right now"
He came back with "Ya can't beat old reliable can ya,, John, Heat rises right?,, Keep it on the floor in a closet and close the door."
The science part I got from a trusted source, a gent name of Bill Knight (the Mad Monk) as he shared it on another forum.
Yes it is.
In terms of a fire hazard I'd say a pound of powder is about equal to a 1/2 cup of gasoline. In terms of explosion value as expressed by work, Gasoline is many, many, many, times more powerful.
Almost a century ago or so there was a tractor made that used a 12 gauge shot gun blank to turn over the engine and start it, called the Field Marshal. I estimate that blank took less than 100 grains of powder. It doesn't take very much gasoline to fire a piston over. A couple drops at most.
Here's a video of the tractor.
This is an interesting point, as it brings up a subject that, believe it or not, a lot of folks out there don't understand. Gasoline, as a liquid, is not flammable, and will not explode, it is the vapor that is both flammable and explosive. As most all of us know it takes a combination of elements to create fire, and an explosion is nothing more than a very intense and fast burning fire. Most of my working years were spent in the oil field dealing with flammable liquids, I both hauled the silly stuff and later gauged the tanks it was sored in for the company I worked for. Vapor coming off from crude oil will burn just as bad as will gasoline fumes, and interestingly they can find their way into a running engine and when they do it's Katie bar the door, all hell is going to brake loose, including the distinct possibility of an explosion and resulting fire, and when the fumes do find the engine intake there is no way to shut it down, speaking here if diesel engines, sorry, old truck driver. As for the explosive power of petrol fumes, they are some of the most powerful existent. The problem with the silly stuff is how little it takes to set them off once the right oxygen, gas mixture is reached. Ok, sorry to go off on all this, but it is interesting to me how lax most people are about gasoline, we use it every day, fill our vehicles, store it for our yard equipment, but far too many fail to understand it's destructive power, and how easily that power can be unleashed.
Tom Compton
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In the original container in an original BP box in the shop. Can’t build pressure. 2 horns in the garage with plugs. Again can’t build pressure.
That's the way I feel as well. The closet has louvered doors, the box is cardboard. Definitely a "FWOOOM!" if it cooks off, but no shrapnel.
There's up to 550 gallons of #2 fuel oil in the basement, and several cans of spray paint, MAPP gas and propane torch canisters on the other end of the basement. Much more potential excitement if they cook off. Not to mention a goodly supply of smokeless powder for cartridge arms and thousands of primers. Scary, really, when you start to take inventory.
There's up to 550 gallons of #2 fuel oil in the basement, and several cans of spray paint, MAPP gas and propane torch canisters on the other end of the basement. Much more potential excitement if they cook off. Not to mention a goodly supply of smokeless powder for cartridge arms and thousands of primers. Scary, really, when you start to take inventory.
Don't forget all the deadly chemical's the Admiral has under the sink to clean the house. Some of which if you mix the fumes will wreck your day. After reading this thread I am thinking we live in a very dangerous world.
I don't keep much in the house. This is more for my wife's peace of mind than I think real danger. Since to save money I have to buy in bulk about once a year, I put around 6 pounds in their individual containers, in plastic, and in a ground cache. This is called a "survival ammo can". https://www.sportsmansguide.com/product/index/mtm-survivor-ammo-can?a=1549611
LD
LD
I use a dormitory room size refrigerator, on the basement floor away from traffic. I got mine many years ago when the local college dorms cleared out for the Summer, it was setting curbside. "One mans trash....".
Cheers,
R
Cheers,
R
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