Black Powder vs Substitutes

[Runner]

Lots of people seem to think that buying nothing but real black will help keep it available by producing profits for the people selling it. No one stopped selling it around here because they were not making a profit on it. They stopped because of the cost of the liscence to sell it, or city requirements for storage that have changed. You have to sell a lot of black to justify the requirements here locally. Basspro and Graf's still sell it, but they are an hour drive away if you hit the traffic right. 2 hours if you don't. The last local source dried up when the ATFE placed the requirement on them that they had to attempt to find out what the end user was buying it for before they could sell it to them. They were afraid that if someone used it for an illegal purpose, that they might be held liable in court. More and more suppliers are dropping it every day, and you can expect a new batch of regulations soon. You can also expect to see riders on home insurance policies that void the policy if black is stored in the residence without following government powder magazine requirements soon. The ugly what if monsters spawned by 9-11 are just now getting around to going over the first changes they got passed. The gun control people see this as a win for them so they are supporting the new regulations. It doesn't matter if you like what is happening or not. Reality is.
I prefer black. In many guns black is more accurate. It is easier to clean than Pyrodex. It smells better also. It is more reliable in a fouled gun in the field than 777 or Pyrodex. It works in flinters. It works well in the cheap factory guns when the others can be iffy.
None of that matters in a world where stores are stopping carrying firearms because looters stole them during a hurricane/flood. A world where the what if monsters run amok and no one uses common sense any more. I doubt very much if black will be available at all inside 20 years without a liscence to purchase and possess it being required of even private individuals. The insurance companies will have killed it for the most part way before then.
I am shooting Pyrodex because I get it for one third the price of black around here. The 777 I have was cheaper than a can of black is, mail order or not. You can wish that cheap black was available everywhere all you want. If you really want that, you need to be making political moves in a big way yesterday.

 

[bramble]

I defer to y'all whose experience and expertise exceed mine. The consistent recommendation is for the real thing, so I can't (& won't) argue with that.

That said, I use pyrodex because it is readily available and affordable (Walmart closes out ML by reducing everything. The last 5 cans I got were 8 bucks each).

I use a .50 TC Hawken percussion and I've had no ignition problems. I don't attribute that to the wonders of pyrodex, but rather to my good sense in listening to the sound advice offered on MLF for cleaning, loading, etc. (thanks to all)

I have had no problems with excessive fouling, using borebutter for a lube. I've found warm water and soap do a good job for cleanup.

This is not an opinion. As I said I defer to the experts. Just my experience.

bramble

 

[paulvallandigham]

Rat Trapper: We are apparently talking apples and oranges. You are shooting Triple 7 in a percussion gun. The powder was designed to ignite with a percussion ignition system. i shoot flint. It will not ignite well or efficiently using flint.

Now, some lots of the Triple 7 have proven to be very accurate, and people have reported great success, as you apparently have experienced. Later lots of Triple 7 have proved to be much weaker powder, and are not satisfying the owners, including shooters of percussion guns, and those unmeantional supository models. I have read comments here that once you open a bottle and allow air to enter the powder, it begins to lose it power. This is what I have been told. Since I don't shoot percussion rifles, I don't have any reason to buy Triple 7, or any of the other substitutes. I got a look at Pyrodex 30 years ago, when a friend bought some of it, based on the same blarney fed him then about the powder as apparently is not being passed out by current store clerks. At first he thought it was good stuff. The day I met him at the range, it was sunny, hot, and humid. The stuff fouled horribly, and he didn't bring a bore brush. He used everything and finally went to the river and poured river water down the barrel to clean it, so he could load and fire again. After that, he cleaned the barrel after every shot. He had sighted his rifle in for that pyrodex load, but when he benched the gun at 50 yds, the balls were hitting all over the bottom of the target. He went back to using some BP he had on hand, and he shot nice little groups off the bench again, and then he shot some very respectable groups off-hand. It wasn't him, the gun, the bench, or the balls. It was the powder. He decided he would never use anything but Black powder again after that, and to my knowledge he never has.

I also encourage people to buy their powder and supplies from the local gun shop, because I believe like you that its up to all of us to help keep the little guy in business. Only if there is no local dealer should you consider buying from a dealer that will ship to your door. Then, that is preferrable to using the substitutes, so that we can continue to have black powder available for us all to shoot. we all should also lobby our congressman to repeal the Hazmat fees on Black powder, and to rewrite the regulations that have driven dealers into giving up the product on their shelves. If black powder were responsible for lots of bombs, and explosions in this country, It would warrant the concern and regulations now imposed. But black powder has not been involved in any of the major explosions and bombing in this country, while products that were used, remain unregulated. Remember that the bomb that blew up the Federal Building in Oklahoma used Kerosine, and Fertilizer. Any restriction on buying or storing either of these hat you know about? Both are heavily used in the Agriculture arena, so Congress passed some feel good legislation that attacked a body of products that has no organized lobby, and that is us. We can't even agree on using black powder!

 

[Rat Trapper]

You are right that the subs are not the best for flintlocks. Hodgdon says in their tripple seven data books to prime with 4F black when using tripple seven. I also agree with you that all of us must support the local small sport shops. Like shooting ranges I feel bad every time one closes. I have gone through about a dozen bottles of Tripple Seven over the last few years. Never had a bad batch. Hodgdon advises to use up an opened bottle of tripple seven with in a year. Since I feed both of my rifles out of the same bottle, that is not a problem. Plus I start the hunting season with a fresh bottle. Tripple seven shoots best when the shooter takes time to weight out his charges on a scale rather than using a measure. Note when doing this you must run some through a measure first to obtain an average weight. Once you have the average weight, you can then use just scale. As one of the fellows above posted about the high cost of license to sell black powder plus local regulations is what is hurting the sport. I don't see things getting much better in the future. We all have to accept the fact that we are now in a minority, the majority of the muzzleloading hunters/shooters are using subs. The only good news I can think of is that there is now a market for a better sub. The powder companies know it, and I think they are working on it.

 

[paulvallandigham]

I sitll don't see any reason to use Triple 7 or any of the other subs. You can still order Black powder shipped directly to you. If we don't buy Black Powder those companies will also go out of business. I can give my business to the local gun shop for the things he sells and can make a profit on. He does not begrudge me for ordering BP from elsewhere, when he no longer carries it. I am not mad at him for NOT carrying BP anymore, and he's not mad at me for buying it elsewhere. So, I don't see the argument one way or the other. Black Powder works better in both percussion and flint lock guns. No sub works better. And No sub costs as little as BP, even with the HazMat fees.

The best thing for BP shooters is the new plant for Goex is now doing a much more careful job of screening the powder, so we are finding less " fines " in our FFg powder than we used to. The quality of powder that is being produced here in the United States is now as good as those produced overseas. I know I am old fashioned, but along with supporting my local gun shop, I also buy American, when I can.

 

[Dave Rosenthal]

:applause: :applause: Now that's what I'm talking about! Nice job Paul :hatsoff: . All the best, Dave

 

[Mad Monk]

Paul,

At the Harrisburg Sportsman's Show I spoke with the president of GOEX.

For the past year I have been talking to several people in the business about boxes to hold up to 10 pounds of powder for shipment via UPS without having to fill the remainder of a 25 pound box with paper.

The future of black powder sales is such that within the next 5 to 10 years the only way to get it will be to order it from a distributor.

In my talks with GOEX and Schuetzen I pointed out that this 25 pound box thing is forcing some shooters to shoot the subs. Some BP distributors will ship 5 pounds or 10 pounds but end up using the big 25 pound boxes to do so. This means that they must have a supply of extra 25-pound boxes which some do not.

In the next year we should see 10-pound boxes out of both powder suppliers. While that will not reduce hazmat fee nonsense it will make it a bit easier for bp shooters to purchase and store the powder.

Another remark you made would best be addressed in private messages.

 

[Rat Trapper]

I guess you missed my point, I LIKE TRIPPLE SEVEN!! It works really well for me in my rifles.

 

[Runner]

While I can make either Pyrodex or 777 work just fine for my uses, I can't say like either one. I bought one can of powder with my first pistol. My brother got it and the pistol a few days later. When I went back looking for a new pistol and more powder, I got the, "Pyrodex is more powerful in your guns, gives you more shots per pound, and it is safer to store in your home", line from the saleman behind the counter. I bought the "better" stuff as a newby, and I never tried anything else really until 777 came out. I have so much experience using Pyrodex that all the problems it has are normal for me. Even having said that, black is much better if you can get it locally. The local part is a requirement for me. I have cats, dogs, 4 snakes, children, grand children, friends, and family here on a regular basis. I only keep one or two cans here, and it doesn't matter what powder that is. I am not comfortable with more than that in the house. If I could go buy black the way I use it, I would never use anything else. Since I can't anymore, I use Pyrodex again. After using Graf's for a year or so off and on with Goex, Pyrodex is a pain in the butt!

 

[wtilenw]

I'll just add my opinion here. I shot Pyrodex Select as recently as several years ago with great success. Accuracy was very good with the right load combination in each gun used. Most of my testing and load development was done during late spring and summer, hot and dry here. I felt very confident in my rifles for hunting purposes and was successful in most seasons, these being mostly dry and warm or dry and cold.
My reason for switching to real blackpowder came with the realization that substitutes being readily available is because they are a PROPELLANT and real blackpowder is an EXPLOSIVE This means that real blackpowder has a lower ignition temperature. The only misfires that myself and fellow shooters have had that left any impression on us are the ones that occured while hunting and resulted in a lost opportunity on game. Upon swapping stories, I realized that all of us had experienced a misfire in a hunting situation. This clinched the deal for me, I was going to try real black. I ordered some KIK 2F from[url] www.powderinc.com[/url] and fell in love with it. I have not had a misfire since, cleanup is a breeze and I save about 40% over the cost of Pyrodex Select. If all I did was plink and punch paper, and did very little of it I may consider the substitutes but with any volume of shots fired, the savings is real. Any hunting at all and it's only REAL BLACKPOWDER.
Idaho PRB

 

[Chaplain Dan]

I use black powder and a patched round ball, theydidn't have Pyrox back then and I want to experience what they experienced. Except for hunger, torture, and scalping they are not big on my list :shake:

 

[copperhead]

I am a complete newbee to muzzleloading and to this forum. I have never owned or loaded a muzzleloader until this last weekend. I stopped and purchased what they had, no real black, just pyrodex. I cleaned the bore on my Traditions Trapper per the instructions on the bore butter label. By the third shot I noticed that there was inconsistent resistance along the way while loading the patched roundball. I shot probably six shots before stopping. Later that day I learned that my father had some FFFg black he had obtained years earlier from a friend. I fired 6-8 shots with black and it appeared to me that with each shot loading became easier. This is just my experience with just a few shots and maybe its not enough, but my conclusion so far is black fouls far less and in my case appeared to alleviate preexisting fouling.

 

[paulvallandigham]

You are new, so welcome. There are a few reasons to prefer Black Powder to the substitutes. Firs it generally is cheaper to buy even with the Haz Mat fees. You do have to locate a source, and we have a couple of suppliers how have links here under Membership Services on the index page, who will sell you as little as 5 lbs. shipped directly to your house. If you can find a few friends to order powder with, you can order it by the case( 25 lbs. ) and save the most money.

Second, it burns at a lower flashpoint( temperature of ignition) than do the subs.

Third: its the only powder you can use in flintlocks.

Fourth it cleans with soap and water. The subs may clean out with soap and water, but some require other solvents to get them clean. Then there is the matter of crud building up in the barrel. A wet patch followed by a dry patch is all that is needed to get built up crud out of the barrel and have it shooting like new. With the subs, a wet patch usually is not enough. You need to use a bore brush on the crud to break it loose. Then, flush it out.

Subs. are more expensive, harder to clean, need to be cleaned just as often as black powder-- even though clerks in stores are fond of telling you that you don't have to clean your gun when you finish shooting it like with a BP gun---- and if you don't clean a gun with the subs, they absorb water from the air much faster and will corrode the barrel. Yes, you can find them in stores, but they are just the wrong thing to use, unless you are shooting one of the zip guns that uses plastic sabots and copper jacketed pistol bullets, shotgun primers, and modern powders. If you want to buy your powder formed into little rings, and pay even more for them, while still having to find the right combination to shoot the most accurately in your gun, then by all means buy the substitutes.

All the mysteries of Black Powder were worked out hundreds of years ago. It is traditional. The only thing new is the new guy shooting the gun. And, the fun of this sport is learning how to make the old ways work just as well today. It bothers the heck out of a lot of " heros " at the range when you can out shoot them using a flintlock, when they are shooting a scoped wondergun! I witnesses a young man dressed in fatique pants and combat boots, shooting his folding stock M-15 rifle off-hand at a 100 yard target using a 30 round magazine. He barely hit the paper. Next to him was a guy shooting a single shot rifle with open sites, and all his shots went into the black. Next to that fellow was a guy with a percussion rifle, and all his shots were in the black. When targets were changed and they all went down to score their targets can tape up the hole, the young guy didn't have any tape, so one of the other fellows offered to help him. He came over and looked at the holes of the targets as the two shooters were taping over them, and then use their tape to do his own target. When they went back, he packed up his gun and gear and left the range. It was a shame. He should have stayed and asked questions, and watched what these shooters were doing that allowed them to shoot so well.

Stick with us. We may be mostly old guys, but we have made a lot of mistakes were can save you from making yourself. Don't worry, you will still find mistakes of your own to make.

 

[F.G. Ford]

Sir,
Fine guiding and informative words!
Old ( Fart) Ford

 

Paul, your last couple sentences spoke volumes, WELL SAID.

Bill

A penny saved is government oversight!!

 

[paulvallandigham]

Thanks, Bill. But I thought the entire post was well written, and spoke volumes. Someone said that" Youth is wasted on the Young ". Perhaps so. But, since that is the order of things, The only thing we can change is how fast young people get smarter! That young guy with his 30 rd. magazine .223 folding stock wondergun missed his target because he didn't know shooting fundamentals, ( stance, sight picture, squeeze, breath control, follow through, etc.) and he thought, as so many young shooters do, that all those extra rounds would somehow improve his chance of hitting the target. What he found is that no matter how many shots you fire, they all can just be punching holes in the air! If he had stayed around to watch, and ask questions, he would have learned how to punch the holes in paper.

"Too soon Old, too late Smart!" Was the line from the stand up comic.

 

[sjb1958]

I have gone to Triple Seven in both of my rifles and it works very well. Vel is higher accuracy is excellent and it burns cleaner.

:hmm: Have you shot over a cronograph Vel is usally lower but at least constant w 777. I prefer real. Shel

 

[sjb1958]

There is no Substitute for Black powder. :v

:applause: :applause: :applause: Shel

 

[xxgrampa]

greetings mike,

and thanks for starting this post. a lot opinions here.

now i am only relating my experiance. not saying my way or the hi-way :grin:

years ago when black was hard to get and before distributers shipped out 25# at a whack. i won a lot of money at shoots using pyrodex in a flintlock. had a couple of oval dupont cans of 4F and that was it. so used a brass pan primer and gave the bore 2 shots of 4F for a prime and the rest pyrodex. as long as you loaded CONSISTANTLY the accuracy was great.

used slick-50 for a patch lube. you could shoot all day and never wipe the bore. when you are done shooting. two of your slick-50 patches down the bore and you are finished.

most people screw up using pyrodex by trying to treat it like black powder. black lube dosen't always work with pyrodex. they are two differant animals.

now that i can get black again, it's my choice. not because it's better. just like the smell :grin:

..ttfn..grampa..