Black vs. Pyrodex

[topbike]

My grandson asked me the other day about something I have never considered in forty years of black powder shooting. The background is: I just purchased a 50 cal TC Hawken and a load of supplies for a ridiculous price. Amongst the items was three containers of Pyrodex 2 rifle,2 pistol.
We shot pyrodex in the TC and then I pulled out my flintlock and also the black powder to shoot it. My grandson asked why I didn't use Pyrodex and I said it won't ignite properly in my flintlock so he asked why I didn't just mix the two together to help the pyrodex ignite. I didn't have an answer. Can you??
Thanks.

 

[necchi]

To explain to the kid.
Powders are actually compounds, being made up of two or more ingredients.In the case of BP it's 3 things mixed together in a specific recipe.
Mixing the two would create a new "super" compound with a new mix of stuff that wouldn't have any of the properties of each one alone.
Continue to explain;
When we mix to compounds we really don't know how well they'll mix or what will happen, and in the case of explosive powders can have a pretty serious results. Or it'll be a complete failure.

You can explain that in this case people do indeed use a duplex load, stacking Pyrodex over the top of a BP charge, so that the BP ignites the pyrodex. Mixing the two just plain don't work because the Pyrodex will "lessin" the power of the BP.

 

[topbike]

That explains it to me, also. I guess it was something I was told starting out, no real explanation, just never do it. I only remember ever purchasing pyrodex once years ago when black wasn't available and I think I gave most of the container away. Just goes to reinforce the saying, out of the mouths of babes.

Thanks :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

 

[Rifleman1776]

Powders are actually compounds, being made up of two or more ingredients.In the case of BP it's 3 things mixed together in a specific recipe.

Actually, bp is a chemical mixture. It becomes a compound upon ignition.

 

[Grenadier1758]

We should all be aware that the Pyrodex requires a much higher ignition temperature to ignite compared to black powder. Therefore black powder is the only propellant that works well in a flintlock.

There are reports that satisfactory results can be obtained in a flintlock using black powder in the pan and a starting charge of 5 to 10 grains of black to start the charge of Pyrodex. If you normally shoot a load of 80 grains of black powder, the duplex load would be 10 grains volume of black powder and 70 grains volume of Pyrodex.

You don't want to mix the two powders because of the different densities and you can't be sure of a distribution of powders in the mix.

 

[necchi]

Actually, bp is a chemical mixture. It becomes a compound upon ignition.

Yeah, Right, Ok,,,

 

[Zonie]

If I was explaining it, the story would go about like this:

"The black powder lights pretty easily and the Pyrodex doesn't so the black powder works best for flintlocks where there isn't a lot of heat getting to it.

If I mix the Pyrodex into the black powder in equal amounts, the Pyrodex in the mix will get in the way of the heat from the pan flash and block off about half of it.
The remaining heat that gets to the black powder might or might not be enough to light it.

That might be better than just using only the Pyrodex but it can never be as good as using pure black powder.

Now, if we pour some pure black powder down the barrel first so it's right by the touch hole and then add some Pyrodex up on top of it, the pure black powder will light just like it should.
Once it's burning, it will light the Pyrodex and the gun will shoot just about as good as it usually does."

I bet even the kid would understand that.

If he doesn't I might say,
"You like orange juice don't you?"
"YES!

"Will a glass of it taste as good if I mix in about half a glass of water?"
No.

"OK. I won't mess with your orange juice and I won't mess with my powder. Understand?" :grin:

 

[DeeDubya]

My experience comparing FFg and Pyrodex RS in a percussion rifle is that I can actually hear the difference. While FFg ignites instantly the Pyrodex has a lag like a "fast hang-fire" where you hear a ka-boom instead of just boom. I can hear the cap first and then the charge. I don't hear that in a revolver comparing FFFg and Pyrodex P.

Isn't Pyrodex smokeless powder with a major amount of burn inhibitors added to slow combustion? Seems that would explain why Pyrodex is harder to ignite.

 

[Zonie]

No.

Pyrodex is not smokeless powder.

Smokeless powder is either nitrocellulose or a mixture of nitrocellulose and nitroglycerin.

Pyrodex has neither of these in it.

It is a mixture of charcoal, sulfur, Potassium Nitrate, Potassium Perchlorate and a small amount of graphite along with some proprietary ingredients.
The two Potassium compounds provides the oxygen for combustion.

Pyrodex is not considered an explosive because its burn rate is slower than real black powder.

 

[DeeDubya]

Well that makes me feel better about using Pyrodex. I've been misinformed all these years as Pyrodex has been around for 40 years or so. I think I can actually dig up an article that said that Pyrodex is smokeless powder with smoke added. Who wrote that manure?

 

[DeeDubya]

Double post - deleted

 

[tenngun]

Was having trouble finding black so I got a lot of the p. Still have some pounds left. I shoot a 70 grain charge in my .50. I have a couple of charges in my bag for it. a 20 grain charge and a 50 grain. I dump 20 3f then 50 by volume of the 'unholy'p it shoots as well as the real stuff in a flinter.
I would not think just mixing would effect the preformance, but I cant think of a reason to try. However if you poured a pound by volume of p and a pound of black in to a bowl and mixed it then filled a horn with it I would think that by the time you got to the fireing line they would seperate. Over the corse of the day you would throw charges 80-90% one or the other :idunno:
Any way when mine is gone I hope to never have to get any again.

 

[Pete G]

I bet even the kid would understand that.

If he doesn't I might say,
"You like orange juice don't you?"
"YES!

"Will a glass of it taste as good if I mix in about half a glass of [strike]water[/strike]VODKA?"
[strike]No[/strike] O YEAH.

:wink: :wink:

 

[Rifleman1776]

I would not think just mixing would effect the preformance, but I cant think of a reason to try.

When I began reloading modern cartidges I read the manuals first. All warn about the dangers of mixing powders in an attempt to improve performance. I'm no chemist and I like my face and fingers where they are. Mixing is, at best, a chancy thing. We are playing with stuff that goes bang. As you say, "no reason to try". Methinks nothing is to be gained by such a potentially dangerous experiment.
This game isn't easy. If we want easy, buy a 30-06. :td:

 

[Billnpatti]

It might possibly work. I've never tried it and never will simply because I have plenty of black powder and none of the substitutes. But, my question is why would you mix them when you have both and you have both a flintlock and a caplock. Shoot the black powder in the flintlock and the Pyrodex in the caplock. No need to mix them. Actually, I have no idea what the mix would do.....shoot just fine or blow up a good gun. :idunno: But, I wouldn't do it. :shake: It ain't worth it and you have no real need to do it.

 

[Spikebuck]

Zonie, I like your approach and would make it even more simple:

"It's safer, faster and easier to use just one kind of powder at a time."

Rifleman...thanks for bringing up the mixture vs compound factoid. I'd never really thought about that and so that is my "I learned something today." :grin:

 

[necchi]

Rifleman...thanks for bringing up the mixture vs compound factoid.

I'm sorry but that's simply incorrect.
If Black powder was a "mixture" you would be able to physically separate the 3 components.
Look at a single grain of BP,, is it the sulfur part or the charcoal part or the KNO3? It's all 3.
A new compound.
It's all been mixed, whetted, pressed, dried, crushed and sifted, et al,,
When the compound is burned the original ingredients become something else,, the stuff simply isn't what it was. The original compound has been oxidized.
But it's not for me to try to convince folks about the basic aspects chemistry. Let'm believe what they can,,

 

[Rifleman1776]

Rifleman...thanks for bringing up the mixture vs compound factoid.

I'm sorry but that's simply incorrect.
If Black powder was a "mixture" you would be able to physically separate the 3 components.
Look at a single grain of BP,, is it the sulfur part or the charcoal part or the KNO3? It's all 3.
A new compound.
It's all been mixed, whetted, pressed, dried, crushed and sifted, et al,,
When the compound is burned the original ingredients become something else,, the stuff simply isn't what it was. The original compound has been oxidized.
But it's not for me to try to convince folks about the basic aspects chemistry. Let'm believe what they can,,

I don't claim high level chemistry knowledge. But, I learned IT IS a chemical mixture from someone with those credentials a long time ago. An article on that subject was published in Muzzle Blasts.

 

[Stumpkiller]

My grandson asked why I didn't use Pyrodex and I said it won't ignite properly in my flintlock so he asked why I didn't just mix the two together to help the pyrodex ignite. I didn't have an answer. Can you??
Thanks.

Read the blackpowder can. It recommends against mixing with other powders. Look at it this way. If the pressure with a blackpowder charge is 8,000 C.U.P., and the Pyrodex is 8,000 C.U.P., you would thing together in any combination they would produce 8,000. But that ain't necessarily so. Unlike blackpowder, other powders are oxidizers and produce oxygen as they combust. That might mean a duplex charge climbs to 12,000 C.U.P.

I don't have the true figures, but there is likely a reason the manufacturer says "No".

 

[tenngun]

I think we're going in two different directions here. P and b/p are two simular compounds. Similar chemical make ups and produce almost the same reaction. So close that they can both be used safely. If I pour 1 cup of b/p and 1 cup of p in th a bowl and stir together I will get 1 pint of powder that will weigh a little less then a pound. Scouting out a 70 grain measure and drop it down a bore I should get simular pressures and velocity to 70 grains of b/p or the volume of 70 grains p.
Loading a duplex load as I do with a 'kicker' of b/p below a charge of p I get the same results as a full chafe of b/p. When it's fired there is a moment where hot burning b/p grains are being blown into cool not burning p before the ball starts to move. It mixed in the bore.
Taking that 50-50 mix and putting it on a shelf the fact that b/p is heavier then p it would over time settle to the bottom. Being carried in a horn or flask would excelerat ether settling.si you couldn't carry this mix a field.
To truly mix the compound you would have to use somsort of solvent, water, urine Jack Daniels, then make a paste let day the crush. Now you would change the chemistry of the induvigal grains. So all bets would be off.
Making a dry mix would not be the same as compounding both together. Doing either is a waste of time but only one might be dangerous.
In the end shoot black and don't have to worry about it, unless you start arguing over g-o ver swiss