Blackpowder Any Difference

[MikeC]

Hello,

Been a while since I posted. good to be back.

Has anyone compared Swiss Blackpowder and Goex Blackpowder FFg?

Someone told me the Swiss is better and others tell me they are both BP and shoot the same. goex is readily available to me. Swiss I have to travel for.

Mike

 

[Dave K]

Swiss will have less residue, more power per grain of powder and it costs more per pound. Of course to get the same FPS, you will use fewer grains of powder, by approx. 15%. Is it better? That is subjective to the individual. I like it so far, that is all I use in my rifles.

 

[Larry Pletcher]

The fellows that shoot in long range muzzle loading matches (like Bisley or Oak Ridge) find that Swiss is 10-15% stronger than Goex of = size. Shooters in this game find that they can reduce the amount of Swiss while maintaining the same velocity. This varies between rifles but 10% reduction would be ball park. BTW, with traditional target rifles and some originals, they fire a 530-550 gr bullet about 1300 fps. They are split between paper patch and grease groove bullets, but do shoot a bullet typical of the target loads of the late 1800s, not the conicals of today.

My experience is comparing Swiss and Goex 4fg powders. There, 4fg Swiss is measurably faster than Goex 4fg. Swiss also has a priming powder out named Null b which is slighty faster than Swiss 4gf; both faster than Goex. The testing was done off the gun with the lock in a lab setting. I should add that though the differences are measurable in this testing, the difference is too small to noticed by human senses.

Regards,
Pletch

 

[silverfox]

Looks like this is going the same direction I thought it would. Swiss vs Goex. Nearly everybody I know who has used Swiss will say it is cleaner, faster, uses less powder for equal loads it's great stuff. Then unless they are shooting at a national match or world match these same shooters will use Goex because its cheaper shoots good with no problems and one or two points doesn't matter in the field or local matches.
I like Swiss but Goex is available and cheaper so I go with Goex.
Fox :hatsoff:

 

[Will Bison]

I put a few rounds through the chrony, Swiss is a bit faster but group size was so close I couldn't make the call. (.54 flint at 100 yards)

I can shoot Swiss or GOEX all afternoon with no fouling problems.

At 600 yards in my '63 Sharps, the Swiss is just a tad more accurate but I attribute the difference to the higher velocity.

 

[MikeC]

I put a few rounds through the chrony, Swiss is a bit faster but group size was so close I couldn't make the call. (.54 flint at 100 yards)

I can shoot Swiss or GOEX all afternoon with no fouling problems.

At 600 yards in my '63 Sharps, the Swiss is just a tad more accurate but I attribute the difference to the higher velocity.

Thanks for the reply guys. I guess for my simple close range hunting the difference is a moot point.

Will...If I understand you correctly if I sighted in with either powder, point of impact should be the same at lets say 50 yards. I sighted in using a friends Swiss but he's all out and not about to drive the 95 miles each way to get it and I agree. Shipping for only two pounds is ridiculous.

 

[Vairochana]

Gday,
is 777 BP or a substitute?

 

[MikeC]

Gday,
is 777 BP or a substitute?

It's a sub.

 

[jdixon]

I agree with the what silverfox says. My experience is that the Swiss is hotter than red can Goex. A sideXside we did here last summer showed that equal loads of Swiss and regular Goex patterned about the same in group size but, the Swiss groups were several inches higher. We loaded down the Swiss by as much as 20% to get its groups into the same area as the Goex. With Swiss costing almost twice as much, these smaller loads still do not pay the difference. Cleaner burning? I would have to say yes Swiss produces less fouling than regular Goex. Here is an option. Ask your local dealer of Goex (you are lucky to have one of those - not many left it seems) to get Goex Express, comes in a black can. I find that this stuff is as good or even better in all aspects than Swiss AND, it is American made - a big plus for me. Express will run about the same per pound as Swiss - get a pound and try it out.

 

[renovato]

Swiss seems more consistant than Goex for me. I get slightly better groups and there is less fouling. In my rifles it's not so noticeable, but it sure works better in my pistols than Goex.If it wasn't so much more money, I'd shoot it exclusively.

 

[Herb]

Mike, what caliber are you concerned with? I have chronograph measurements on comparisons of Goex 2F and 3F and Swiss 2F and 3F (plus Pyrodex P and RS and Triple 7 2F and 3F) in caplocks and flintlocks in .40, .50 and .54 calibers.

 

[MikeC]

Mike, what caliber are you concerned with? I have chronograph measurements on comparisons of Goex 2F and 3F and Swiss 2F and 3F (plus Pyrodex P and RS and Triple 7 2F and 3F) in caplocks and flintlocks in .40, .50 and .54 calibers.

Herb,

Caplock .50 TC Hawken

 

[Herb]

These tests are over a year and a half with rifles I made. All the loads following were with .490 cast balls and pillow ticking or other patches, with Murphy Oil Soap and 91% alcohol 50-50 for lube. No wiping between shots or between powders for any session, maybe up to 50 shots. These are five or six shot strings, six because the first shot with a changed powder is usually lower in velocity or out of the group. If not, I included it. The loads are for comparison and not selected for accuracy. Second trials may be on another day and may have a different patch. Even if the same components, the velocity may be different.

First, a Jacob Wigle flintlock (Westmoreland Co., PA, I copied it from an original in a museum here). LC Rice 38" barrel.
50 grains of Goex 3F gave 1524 fps with extreme spread of 16 fps. Another, 1492/63 and 1503/29.
50 grains of Swiss 2F gave 1523/9.
50 grains of Swiss 3F gave 1618/12 and 1623/21.
80 grains of Goex 2F gave 1714/50 and 1750/44.
80 gr Goex 3F 1863/63 and 1832/63 (5 in 1.1")
80 gr Swiss 2F 1857/39.
80 gr Swiss 3F 1985/28 (6 in 0.95" 50 yds) and 2030/36 for 6.
80 gr Pyrodex RS (70 w/ 10 gr Goex 2F booster) 1686/53, (five in 1.55", 4 in 0.9")
80 gr Triple 7 2F (70 gr w/ 10 gr Goex 2F) 1921/76 (5 in 1.5", 4 in 1")
80 gr Triple 7 3F (70/10) 1962/80 (4 in 1").

Next, a Joel Ferree .50 caplock, 38" B swamped Green Mtn barrel.
80 Goex 2F, 1792/53 and 1763/33.
80 Goex 3F, 1925/41.
80 Swiss 2F, 1938/34 and 1922/25.
80 Swiss 3F, 2072/35.
80 Triple 7 2F (no booster) 1952/97, 2041/44 (different patches).
80 Triple 7 3F, 2140/104, 2053/106 (patches tore).

Another Joel Ferree, flint, 42" B Colerain.
80 Goex 2F, 1678/44 (first 10 shots out of barrel) and 1642/36.
80 Goex 3F, 1696/43 (5) and 1664/39.
80 Pyrodex RS (70 w/ 10 gr 3F boost) 1807/114.
80 Triple 7 2F (75 w/ 5 gr 3F boost) 1893/28.
80 Triple 7 3F (75 w/ 5 gr 3F boost) 1984/83.
The Pyrodex RS and Triple 7 3F gave the best groups of this test- may be how I rested the rifle on the sandbags.

These tests show how the velocities compare, one powder to another. Notice the 38" Green Mtn barrel gave higher velocities than the 38" Rice barrel in the Wigle rifle, and both were higher than the 42" Colerain. Patches were not always the same, they make a difference. Lube was always the same, Murphy Oil Soap and 91% alcohol, 50-50. The Triple 7 powder needs a hot shot nipple in percussion, standard CCI 11 caps are fine, and no black powder booster charge. The flintlocks need a 5 grain black powder booster charge and shoot the Triple 7 well, but that powder needs a thick patch and over powder wad. Pyrodex P and RS are more trouble than Triple 7 and can destroy patches. They need more black powder booster and an OP Wad, but I like RS.

The reason for the high velocity spreads with the Pyrodex and Triple 7 powders is because of torn patches. I'm still working on that, but have good luck with thin leather OPWads. Lube not neccesary. Accuracy can be good with all these powders, just a matter of getting a good patch and making sights that I can hold consistently and holding the rifle at the bench.

 

[MikeC]

Herb,

Much appreciated. Interesting results with the sub powders. I'm sticking to BP though.

Mike