Blackpowder vs Pyrodex & Flintlocks - Dumb Question

[pheenix99]

It's my understanding that Pyrodex (or any other BP substitute) sucks horribly as a priming powder in flintlocks. My question is whether or not it would be a bad idea to use a BP substitute as the main charge and BP to prime the pan. I figure that way, I can use my flintlock and make my bp supply last longer.
Now I just need to snag some more BP, but that's proving to be a challenge. Nobody in my area (Central FL) seems to carry it.

 

[deermanok]

Some people seem to have decent luck using subs as the main charge but not in the pan.

 

[TFoley]

BP has a VERY low flash point compared with even the basic substitute say Pyrodex, because it is chemically very different. BP is made of entirely naturally-found substances, whereas Pyrodex and other subs is a product of a chemical laboratory. Figure why the BP in the pan actually ignites - it is sparking tiney white-hot fragments of the frizzen - acting like a striking iron - that fall into the pan that sets it all off. BP ignites at between 450- 500 F.

Subs ignite at a higher temperature - around 700 F. I'll let you guess the ignition temperature of Triple 7..........................

The sparks from the pan are just going to squib out trying to set off a sub.

THAT's why we tend not to use it in pans.

Using it in a duplex load - a 'starter charge' of 20gr of BP first down the barrel, followed by your favourite load of sub, is something that some folks do. Seems to me to be a whole PITA procedure when you can use the same powder for the pan AND the charge.

TomAHTO or tomAYto.

Your choice.

 

[pheenix99]

BP has a VERY low flash point compared with even the basic substitute say Pyrodex, because it is chemically very different. BP is made of entirely naturally-found substances, whereas Pyrodex and other subs is a product of a chemical laboratory. Figure why the BP in the pan actually ignites - it is sparking tiney white-hot fragments of the frizzen - acting like a striking iron - that fall into the pan that sets it all off. BP ignites at between 450- 500 F.

Subs ignite at a higher temperature - around 700 F. I'll let you guess the ignition temperature of Triple 7..........................

The sparks from the pan are just going to squib out trying to set off a sub.

THAT's why we tend not to use it in pans.

Using it in a duplex load - a 'starter charge' of 20gr of BP first down the barrel, followed by your favourite load of sub, is something that some folks do. Seems to me to be a whole PITA procedure when you can use the same powder for the pan AND the charge.

TomAHTO or tomAYto.

Your choice.

I think I found a source of BP about 90 min from my house. I plan to check them out this weekend. 4lb of 3F, 4lb of 2F and 1lb of 4F should hold me over for a few years.
I've never had any issues with subs in my percussion guns (to include bp cartridges), so I'll prob just stick with subs for that and genuine for the flints.

 

[hanshi]

Never tried to use a sub but priming with real BP has a good chance of working.

 

[ohio ramrod]

While some people use a combination charge with good results, I know of no one who has gotten good results using the subs in the pan.While it is time consuming to use a small black powder charge under a large pyrodex main charge it will extend your shooting over using all black.We can only hope the supply of black will get back to levels seen before Goex stopped production after they get back into production.

 

[david w]

It's my understanding that Pyrodex (or any other BP substitute) sucks horribly as a priming powder in flintlocks. My question is whether or not it would be a bad idea to use a BP substitute as the main charge and BP to prime the pan. I figure that way, I can use my flintlock and make my bp supply last longer.
Now I just need to snag some more BP, but that's proving to be a challenge. Nobody in my area (Central FL) seems to carry it.

You may consider using 5 to 10 gr BP, along with the sub powder in your main charge. Of course, use BP for the prime. For real BP, try Grafs and Sons. There SHOULD be powder soon from Powder, Inc, or Powder Valley.

 

[Grenadier1758]

@pheenix99, hardly a dumb question and the use of a duplex load has been asked quite often in the forums.

You will have better results using 10 to 15 grains of black powder as the starter charge for the substitute powders. Of course, you need the 3 to 4 grains (volume) of black priming powder in the pan. Mixing real black powder with the substitute powder does not result in reliable ignition as the distribution of powder is quite uncertain.

 

[pheenix99]

@pheenix99, hardly a dumb question and the use of a duplex load has been asked quite often in the forums.

You will have better results using 10 to 15 grains of black powder as the starter charge for the substitute powders. Of course, you need the 3 to 4 grains (volume) of black priming powder in the pan. Mixing real black powder with the substitute powder does not result in reliable ignition as the distribution of powder is quite uncertain.

I found a local shop (well, 90 min drive away) that has real BP. I'd rather just run with BP for the the flintlock, and keep the sub stuff for the percussion arms. Keeping things simple is generally my preferred way to go about things.

 

[Grenadier1758]

To be sure, @pheenix99, real black powder is the best choice for getting the best results from your flintlock rifle.

 

[pheenix99]

To be sure, @pheenix99, real black powder is the best choice for getting the best results from your flintlock rifle.

That's what I concluded. With any luck, I'll snag around 10lbs this weekend.

 

[Rock Home Isle]

It's my understanding that Pyrodex (or any other BP substitute) sucks horribly as a priming powder in flintlocks. My question is whether or not it would be a bad idea to use a BP substitute as the main charge and BP to prime the pan. I figure that way, I can use my flintlock and make my bp supply last longer.
Now I just need to snag some more BP, but that's proving to be a challenge. Nobody in my area (Central FL) seems to carry it.

Back in the day, long ago…before I started to even consider getting a flintlock, much less falling in love with the technology…I tried Pyrodex in my percussion rifles. I found the ignition to be slow, compared to blackpowder, and I needed to use about 20% more Pyrodex to equal the performance of my blackpowder load.

That was my one & only attempt at using alternative powders, I’ve only used blackpowder ever since. I think I still have that original can of Pyrodex, still mostly full.

 

[bang]

I've used duplex load in a flinter with black in pan. Worked as ordered.

 

[bladegrinder]

I don’t know where in central Fl. You are but in February Bill Jackson’s had black in stock and I got 3 pounds. Their in Pinellas Park. I recently moved to North Florida and theirs no black powder up here anywhere, after I run out I’ll have to start mail ordering it.

 

[pheenix99]

I don’t know where in central Fl. You are but in February Bill Jackson’s had black in stock and I got 3 pounds. Their in Pinellas Park. I recently moved to North Florida and theirs no black powder up here anywhere, after I run out I’ll have to start mail ordering it.

Brevard County. It would have to sell for $5/lb for me to consider traversing the hell that is I4. Found a place in Orlando that has it and is expecting a delivery tomorrow. They're asking $36/lb for Scheutzen. Bit pricey IMHO, but once I factor in what I'd have to pay for hazmat shipping, that price difference doesn't seem as bad. Plus I don't have to worry about emailing a copy of my license or sending my CC info anywhere.

 

[B P Maniac Shooter]

This is usually what happens when using substitutes in flint guns:

 

[pheenix99]

This is usually what happens when using substitutes in flint guns:

Definitely gonna stick with real BP and not use subs anymore. I'm sure my Zouave will be grateful too.

 

[Lbrown]

My own experience - I got surprisingly good results in my flinter with a combo charge. I used about 5 grains of BP ahead of the Pyrodex charge and 3-4 of BP to prime. Perfect ignition every time. At about 8-10 grains per shot, you can stretch your BP a long way. Cleanup was about the same as BP.

 

[B P Maniac Shooter]

Definitely gonna stick with real BP and not use subs anymore. I'm sure my Zouave will be grateful too.

Yep...real black powder is available. Its too easy to order & be shooting in no time.
I won't use substitutes anymore once I learned real BP is the best.
Buying the 1st pound of pyrodex when I started was enough.
When it was gone, there was definitely no looking back.

 

[pheenix99]

Yep...real black powder is available. Its too easy to order & be shooting in no time.
I won't use substitutes anymore once I learned real BP is the best.
Buying the 1st pound of pyrodex when I started was enough.
When it was gone, there was definitely no looking back.

Closest place to me that has any is 90 min away. If I can avoid hazmat shipping (and the inevitable headache of being forced to drive across the county to pick up my shipment), I'll do it.