Bluing internal parts

[bdarin]

I relly love shooting with BP, but it takes a while to clean up. And I find that if I don't remove the lock and carefully clean and oil it, rust gets to it rather quickly. All this constant, total disassembly pisses me off. It's no fun to shoot if I have to spend an hour cleaning up. I bought some super bluing and was wondering if I could blue the internals of the lock mechanism to stop the rusting problem. I don't expect the bluing would change any of the tolerances, or mess anything else up, but I need a second opinion before I go doing it. TIA. :master: :: :redthumb:

 

[Rebel]

If you are getting that much fouling down in the internal lock parts you must have a gap between the pan and the barrel. There shouldn't be a gap there. If there is much of a gap priming powder could get down behind the lockplate, and possibly be ignited by the flash, which would be no fun at all. If there is a gap it needs to be fixed either by some filing or as a quick fix, a leather gasket between the pan and barrel.

 

[robinghewitt]

The oil should stay under the lock and keep it all lubed and lovely. One thing that can cause rust under the plate is un-neutralised aqua fortis stain, is it possible it is rusting even if you don't use it? :m2c:

 

[rrgr40]

Careful with the cold blues as they have a tendency to rust if not nuetralized properly. If you have to use a cold blue, get some Oxpho-blue from Brownells.

 

I have a lot of experience with cold blues and use Oxpho from Brownell's exclusively. I find it best to sand or bead blast, then dunk the part in the bluing solution. It will blacken immediately. Rinse in solution of 1 Tbsp baking soda to 1 gallon of water and spray with WD40 to eliminate the water. This will give you a nice, dark blue-black part but you may want to steel wool it and blue again. If so, do not use the WD40 after the first treatment. Steel wool dry, cold blue and rinse in the soda water, then apply the moisture displacer. Brownell's also sells a post bluing wax that can be applied to give more protection. I think it's called Pro-Sheen. Bluing is a surface oxide and will not eliminate rust but it does slow it down some.

 

[bdarin]

Another method that I might try is something I read in a machinist mag. I think it's called oil blackening: heat the part with a torch (not acetylene, not too hot) then dunk in used motor oil. Oil will smoke and stink. When cool, repeat the process...as many times as needed. Part comes out nice and black. With luck it'll also be rustproof. Maybe better than the cold bluing system, guess we'll find out. :hmm:

 

[tg]

As mentioned above it is not common for internal lock rusting as described, one might want to find the cause of this problem and figure out a fix.

 

Bluing the internal parts is not going to stop rust from powder fouling. Not if the gun is not thoroughly cleaned between sessions.

What is the big deal with turning out two lock screws and brushing down a lock anyway? We are talking five minutes, tops!

Sounds like you are trying to skip the cleaning ritual altogether. If you think there is a "rust stopper" out there that will allow you to shoot without cleaning you are in the wrong shooting sport!

I love it when you guys finally get tired of cleaning powder residue. You are a great scource for cheap BP guns at the end of the hunting season! I guess I've bought 50 or 75 from you and your friends down through the years. A little rust in the bore, some corosion in the lockwork, Buy them, shoot the manure out of them and sell them when someone wants a good cheap shooter.

Have you seen the new forum poll? It says that 27% of the persons that post have been in this hobby less than 5 years, 34% less than ten years. Part of that is because folks don't like to clean BP and they quit shooting it!

Take some advice from one of the 2 percenters at the bottom of the list, go to Wally-World and buy yourself a cheap .22 and find some tin cans, if you're tired of cleaning.

 

The guys are correct- if you shoot BP, you have to clean properly, which means lock removal to clean any and all BP fowling from it's innards. Barrel removal is also "normal cleaning", although there are many guys who don't. Al of the guys who shoot my bro's guns are instructed to remove barrels for cleaning in a bucket of water. This means from 1 to 4 pins or wedges depending on the style of gun. Removing pins from a PROPERLY MADE GUN wil not harm to gun nor the loops.
: Bluing or browning will not stop rust from forming. Bluging will not change tolerances. Parkerizing might prevent rusting, but builds up a thicknes that won't work with close fitting parts.
; I totally agree with Ghost on his recommendations re- 'a plinking gun'.

 

[Doc Arroyo]

bdarin-

How are you cleaning the lock? It sounds like your method takes too long.

I turn on the hot water at the kitchen sink. I remove two screws, and remove the lock. By that time the water is hot. I spray the lock down with 50/50 windex/water. I rinse with the hot water. I set the lock on the drain board to dry. It is dry by the time I have cleaned the barrel - 30 minutes tops! Oil the lock and reinstall.

35 minutes is my average from walking in the door to clean, oiled and put away.

Once a year I perform a "total dissassembly" on the lock, and then I also remove the barrel from the stock. I wax the stock channel and bottom of the barrel, and thoroughly clean the lock internals. No rust, and the outside of the lock is in the white too!

 

[bdarin]

Well I guess I'm waiting too long to clean it. I can clean the barrel in the field using BP solvent, but the lock might be a day or 2 before I get the gun to the shop and take it apart. By then it's too late, rust has moved in and I have to do a complete disassemble. I was hoping to buy some time here, but I guess cleaning NOW is the way to go. As for plinking, I have a .22 and can shoot the fleas off a dog's back at 100 yards with it, which is why I got into muzzleloaders in the first place. Some of us need a challenge to keep from getting bored. I'll take up ML cleanliness as my next challenge. :agree: eace: :thumbsup: :blah:

 

[robinghewitt]

If you can fix the gaps it shouldn't need cleaning under the lock. Here's a pic of a rifled musket with what looks like a dried out congealed crust of the original grease inside. Still shiny after maybe a hundred years, shoots good to ::

 

Well you got a LITTLE good advice here, some rotten snide remarks at no extra charge, and a bit of advice on bluing the innerds that you shouldn't be doing at all.
You glean the posts and select what appeals to you as good advice.
1) You should NOT be getting rust inside the lock.
Figure out why your getting rust and stop it.
I don't know what you are doing so can't help you there.
2) DON'T wait a day or 2 before you clean the thing. You're inviting trouble.
3) Refine your cleaning methods. It takes me FIFETEEN MINUTES to clean up one rifle!
Yeah, 15 minutes, if I take my time.
And NO I have never, not once had rust in the bore and I own maybe 16 muzzle loaders, including an in-line, flinters and cappers, a shotgun, pistols and revolvers.
Cleaning a muzzle loader is NOT witch craft, nor do you need to boil your socks to clean it either.
Listen, about the waiting a day or 2. You CAN do this if you have passed Muzzle Loader Cleaning 101.
I ONCE let a carbon steel in-lne sit for THREE WEEKS without cleaning and there was not a speck of rust.
But I took a few precautions that took less, yes LESS, than TWO MINUTES.
If you have trouble let us know.
Most of us will give you good avice without using the water you just boiled your 'taters in or chrome plating the innerds, or talking you out of the sport.
But 1st. What are you shooting, exactly! Type of arm, type of powder, you know DETAILS.
Honestly, people make this sport way too much work. it's supposed to be fun. :blah: :: Like having a good time and spending 15 minutes cleaning up. Fun. Get it?
This ain't rocket science.

 

[rrgr40]

Maxiball, I aggree 1000% with your advice. I usually takes me about 30 minutes. I'm naturally slow. Here's the way I do it. I have been using an oil soap, alchohol and peroxide solution for 4 or 5 years now. I put a couple of inches down the bore, (I plug the touch hole or nipple), use my ramrod and guide, slosh it up and down for a couple of minutes and dry the bore and lube. Normally it works very, very well, but recently I have been expierencing a problem with my flintlock. It's a Dixie, Tenn. Mountain Rifle, .50 cal. I use Wonder Lubed ticking, cast balls and Goex powder. It has gotten to the point to where I have to rod the bore for about three days or it will pick up rust. I was at a shoot this summer and there was about a 30 minute delay, when the line was called hot I ran a cleaning patch and it came back with red rust. How can I stop this or is it too late. I have no problems with my other rifles.

 

[bdarin]

The advice is always useful, the snide remarks are ignored. This whole thread is over a percussion Hawken, .50 cal. When the cap goes off, it breaks open, sometimes gets stuck in the hammer (I use an "18th century" 8d nail to pick it out), and throws black crud all over the outside of the lock and the wood near it. When I finish throwing lead at paper, I thoroughly clean and oil the barrel, even use one of those little bore lights to make sure it's clean and shiny. Then I use the powder solvent to clean outside the lock and stock. I think this is where the problem is...the cleaner is getting into the lock and starting rust. The solution: I sent for one of those little "flash cups" from DGW. It's a little conical cup that sits under the nipple and confines the crud flash to itself. It might not be authentic old, but I really don't give a rat's arse as the object is to keep the gun clean. In theory, this should solve my problem, but, as usual, we'll see. I do appreciate all the help I get on this board. And, yes, this is supposed to be fun, no longer a matter of life and death. I try not to take all this stuff TOO seriously. :master: :thumbsup: :RO:

 

Ridgeroader and bdarin:
1st to you Ridge. I can't hardly believe you posted that you used oil soap, alky and peroxide! :shake: :nono:
Boy is that heresy of the 1st order. You're gonna catch it from those that have chemical engineering degrees and tell you how horribly corrosive hydrogen peroxide it.
As for me I............... use it ALL the time! . It's a great black powder solvent, but you already know that.
Here is a little tip, a suggstion, you may want to consider.
It's important to get all the solvent out of the bore. No matter what solvent you use.
I use the m.a.p. till the bore is clean ( 4 to 5 patches), then dry, then two alky patches, a dry, then oil. The alky (91% drug store stuff) will absorb any trace of map. I have NEVER had rust in the bore.
Now about the rust on the trail. I don't know why that is happening. 1st of all the rust color is not hurting anything. It isn't corroding enough to damage the bore, certainly won't pit it.
'Nuther tip, and again pure heresy to some. Try using a 'bore conditioner' instead of oiling the bore when you are done cleaning. I know thousands of period correct people are groaning at the thought of bore conditioning, but I believe it works. I can't prove that, don't have to.
Stumpkiller has come up with a real good beeswax castor oil lube that works just fine for this. Castor oil is used in the finest racing oils. It has a unique property. It protects metal under extreme friciton. It also protects a bore.
Mix 4 oz. castor oil ( Wal-Marts, drug stores) with 1 to 2 oz. beeswax, and an oz. of murphys.
The murphys bind the other 2 together. This is an excellent preservative.
I tested this not long ago by shooting a capper 30 times, a couple shots a day WITHOUT CLEANING in anyway. This in N.E. Ohio dampness and humidity, over 3 weeks. NO FREAKING RUST AT ALL!
I would load the last shot, run a patch of Stumpy's stuff down over the charge and leave it alone, let 'er sit, shoot 'er again and repeat the whole thing.

bdarin. Using the flash cup should solve your problem. In theory, this should solve the problem, but, it may not be 100% p/c, though I think it is, but as you said..."It might not be authentic old, but I really don't give a rat's arse as the object is to keep the gun clean". :thumbsup:

 

I think your getting close thar bdarin,,the flash cups thing helps alot! Primer caps have some nasty stuff in'm.
I guess I'm be a little concerned about your use of "powder solvent" like you say. Most over the counter BP solvents are just soap and water,,"bla, blah and blech" in an aqueas solution"!,aka;water,, just wiping the outside of stuff with water adds to the sulpher/nitrites and "lord knows" what in that powder residue. If you add water to burnt sulfer it be comes "sulphuric acid" icky stuff,makes yer fingers smell bad. makes metal rust.
Clean then "dry" helps stop rust. Dry, then "oil" helps even more. Oil helps minimize residue build-up,that makes it easy to clean,,etc,,,
I'll shoot daily for a week in "camp". Giving the bore and nipp daily "aqueas" cleanings, and the "pulled" lock just a cursery wipe down with an oil rag,,and a couple drips of hoppes #9. I wipe/rub the lock and stock with oil,,not water.
If yer talkin flinter well then ask them guys,,this is the percussion thread ain't it?

 

[Regulis7]

My lock also gets a lot of cap soot inside after a days shoot at the range, 20-40 shots and its dirty as all get out. CVA bolster design contributes to this because its basically a round drum with no flash guard properties at all. Had the gun checked by CVA and my local smith (just to be sure), both said the bolster is fine with no gas leaks to be found.

I tried the solvent only swabbing and wipe method then oil down with *insert your favorite preservative here* but wasnt satisfied with results. So I clean everything in the hot water/murphys solution, after using BP solvent to loosen the fouling in the bore. Takes me about 30 min to get it all detailed out and back togather now.

For the lock I use a tooth brush and the water/murphys to knock off the crud. Rinse with water, dry with cleaning rags then spray with *favorite water displacer*, wipe clean and apply *favorite gun oil* from spray can.

Several guys I work with shoot in NSSA competitions, often times they are not close to home to properly clean up after a shoot. For a temp solution they swab the bore with solvent then oil, wipe the exterrior with solvent then oil, and spray the lock with carb cleaner then oil. After returning from a shoot they do a thorough cleanup.

Regulis7

 

Yup, that's it,,carb cleaner works good, so does break cleaner,the both evaporate quickly,,I even use that "canned air" stuff for cleaning computer parts.
Go to a local auto parts store and get a small "brass" brush, they make'm as small as toothbrush size, handy tool,,won't hurt iron or steel and is a bit more "scrubby"! eace:

 

[rrgr40]

Thanks Maxiball, I'll try that extra step with the alchohol then dry. I figured out a couple of nights ago that the rust is accumulating in about the first six or seven inches of the barrel. Probably the result of being in the boonies in the rain. Thanks again