Books on trade guns?

[TobJohn]

I have been enjoying all of the Rob Miller trade gun content recently and was wondering if anyone has book suggestions to learn more about the originals. Thanks!

 

[tenngun]

Lots
Check out track of the wolf, Townsend’s, log cabin sport shop

 

[TobJohn]

Lots
Check out track of the wolf, Townsend’s, log cabin sport shop

Good recommendation. Thanks!

 

[rich pierce]

For Trade and Treaty is inexpensive and has great photos and measurements.

 

[TobJohn]

For Trade and Treaty is inexpensive and has great photos and measurements.

I was just about to have a follow up asking about that book, so thank you for the recommendation! I will go ahead and order.

 

[hawkenhunter50]

Great Gunmakers for the Early West by Gordon. It is a 3 volume set. Volume 1 is full of trade guns with great pictures.

 

[Rob M.]

I have been enjoying all of the Rob Miller trade gun content recently and was wondering if anyone has book suggestions to learn more about the originals. Thanks!

Lots of books on the subject bud , I'll go through my books and try to make you a list . Unfortunately some of the early books are either very vague or just down right wrong . Give me a few.....

 

[Rob M.]

This ! Is such a great book ! Its more pics than info but it is just amazing pictures from all angles of each gun but good info too . Just amazing ....

 

[TobJohn]

This ! Is such a great book ! Its more pics than info but it is just amazing pictures from all angles of each gun but good info too . Just amazing ....

That’s what I got, so great to have the endorsement!

Out of date books was one my concerns when I was looking.

 

[Rob M.]

Great books here ...

 

[The Crisco Kid]

Hanson's books are good ones.

https://www.amazon.com/trade-gun-sk...fix=trade+gun+by+hanson,stripbooks,237&sr=1-1
https://www.amazon.com/Northwest-gu...arles+hanson+trade+guns,stripbooks,149&sr=1-7

 

[Rob M.]

Just some stuff to keep in mind ... some may not be useful but....up to you ... Folks for some reason associate the NW trade gun as a late gun , esp. Mountain man period , so false . It was being made in the 17th century .... It was an arctic gun , Hudsons Bay , until after the F&I war then it started being seen when Britain took over Canada and great lakes region ...The cast serpent side plate started being used in 1749 ... That's early ...I STILL hear people saying the Carolina gun was the fore runner of the NW Trade gun ...thats just wrong , I dont know how anyone could come up with that malarkey . The earliest Carolina gun we know of is 17;teens Carolina Gun / Type G made by Williams ... the first mention anyone knows of them written is 1740s , when they quit being made is speculative but we think 1790 ish ..The Carolina gun tended to be a southern gun , It came into ports in the south esp. Charleston , S.C. , and the NW gun tended to be a Northern gun , they did mingle some though ......any who , it is quite obvious that the NW trade gun and Carolina gun , and many other unknown , unnamed types ,were in use at the same time side by side , and archeological evidence supports this . NW trade gun parts and Type G parts are found mixed together at every village site in the eastern states all the way to the Mississippi ....and a bit beyond ... The large bow trigger guard started to be used around 1780 , T.M. Hamilton info . First mentions of the NW trade gun by name are in late 1740s and two i know of in the l750s . The earliest example of a NW trade gun , still.in existence , is an example made in 1751 , its in the Museum of the Fur Trade in Chadron , Nebraska . cast side plate , of course , and small bow trigger guard ....

 

[TobJohn]

Just some stuff to keep in mind ... some may not be useful but....up to you ... Folks for some reason associate the NW trade gun as a late gun , esp. Mountain man period , so false . It was being made in the 17th century .... It was an arctic gun , Hudsons Bay , until after the F&I war then it started being seen when Britain took over Canada and great lakes region ...The cast serpent side plate started being used in 1749 ... That's early ...I STILL hear people saying the Carolina gun was the fore runner of the NW Trade gun ...thats just wrong , I dont know how anyone could come up with that malarkey . The earliest Carolina gun we know of is 17;teens Carolina Gun / Type G made by Williams ... the first mention anyone knows of them written is 1740s , when they quit being made is speculative but we think 1790 ish ..The Carolina gun tended to be a southern gun , It came into ports in the south esp. Charleston , S.C. , and the NW gun tended to be a Northern gun , they did mingle some though ......any who , it is quite obvious that the NW trade gun and Carolina gun , and many other unknown , unnamed types ,were in use at the same time side by side , and archeological evidence supports this . NW trade gun parts and Type G parts are found mixed together at every village site in the eastern states all the way to the Mississippi ....and a bit beyond ... The large bow trigger guard started to be used around 1780 , T.M. Hamilton info . First mentions of the NW trade gun by name are in late 1740s and two i know of in the l750s . The earliest example of a NW trade gun , still.in existence , is an example made in 1751 , its in the Museum of the Fur Trade in Chadron , Nebraska . cast side plate , of course , and small bow trigger guard ....

That already corrects a lot of what I have seen, so thank you!

Were these types of trade guns used by European colonists before the American revolution, or just the native population? I can’t seem to find a consistent answer.

 

[Rob M.]

That already corrects a lot of what I have seen, so thank you!

Were these types of trade guns used by European colonists before the American revolution, or just the native population? I can’t seem to find a consistent answer.

Unfortunately its all speculative ... The guns were made strictly for the fur trade and for native purchase as well but anyone could buy one . I have never read any where of native or white mentioning in writing , of them buying a trade gun except for Johnathan Alder and James Smith , both Indians at the time , one captured one adopted . In the 19 th century it is mentioned but thats apples and oranges ....

 

[florkinliege]

That already corrects a lot of what I have seen, so thank you!

Were these types of trade guns used by European colonists before the American revolution, or just the native population? I can’t seem to find a consistent answer.

Well documented on a very limited basis. These were the cheapest shotguns in the period.

THE SOUTH CAROLINA GAZETTE
Date: March 29, 1735

RUN AWAY FROM Mr. Bryan Reily AND Mr. John CarMichael, two Irishmen Servants, both balking broad Scotch, one named Roger OMony, a tall pocksetten freckle-faced Fellow, stooping in the Shoulders, his hair cut and wore a linnen cap, a dark brown colour'd Coat and Westcoat, leather breeches,
and a new pair of ***** shoes, he has a double thumb with two nails on one hand. The other named Alexander Sinkler, a short thick well set, surly looking,
long brown hair'd, smooth faced, sharp long nosed fresh coloured fellow, wearing a dark gray coarse karsey new Coat with buttons of the same, a pair of old brown breeches, a pair of gray yarn stockings and a pair of new ***** shoes with two or three lifts, each of them about 4 or 25
Years old. They stole from the said Masters a new yellow stocked trading Gun, marked on the plate of the lock (to the best of our remembrance) R FARMER. and sundry other goods. Run away likewise from the said Masters two ***** Men (which we suspect they have taken with them) one this Country born,
named George , he speaks good English, a short thick well set sensible fellow, the other named Derry , a tall likely young Ibo ***** branded on the
breast I C. Whoever takes them up and brings them to the said Masters or to the publick Goal in Charles Town , shall have 10l. reward for each of the
white Servants and reasonable charges.
N.B. A Hue and Cry is gone after them.

North Carolina militia use



In January of 1756, Sir Charles Hardy reported to the Lords of Trade on “Warlike Stores in the Magazine” of Fort George in New York City.
In addition to six chests belonging to the Independent companies of regulars Hardy mentions that “what is in the possession of private People are chiefly
for Indian trade”
(A Servant of the Crown…papers of John Appy page 52).

On May 12th, 1757 the Virginia House of Burgesses noted that “It appears to us, that the Commanding Officer of the County of King George furnished the Militia
ordered out of that County with 31 Buckaneer and trading Guns, and 112 lbs. of Shot.” (Journals of the House of Burgesses of Virginia, 1758-1761
By Virginia. General Assembly. House of Burgesses, Henry Read McIlwaine, Virginia State Library)

October 1765 inventory of Allason's Store (located near Fredricksburg Virginia and a long way from the usual Indian trade):

Orig Ms at the Va State Library. Microfilm at CW M-1144.1-14

Guns Fine 1 [@] 16/ 16/0
Trading 17 [@] 8/ 6/18/0
Pocket Pistols 1 pair 1/17/6

Re: Trade guns in use by colonists during F&I war?

Postby flintriflesmith » Fri Nov 18, 2011 10:34 pm
From the October 1765 inventory of Allason's Store (located near Fredricksburg Virginia and a long way from the usual Indian trade):

Guns Fine 1 [@] 16/ 16/0
Trading 17 [@] 8/ 6/18/0
Pocket Pistols 1 pair 1/17/6


In other inventories the "Fine" gun at 16 shillings was listed as a fowler. Twice as expensive as a trade gun.
The customers of this store were mostly locals living along the fall line between tidewater and piedmont VA.

Gary

 

[TobJohn]

Well documented on a very limited basis. These were the cheapest shotguns in the period.

THE SOUTH CAROLINA GAZETTE
Date: March 29, 1735

RUN AWAY FROM Mr. Bryan Reily AND Mr. John CarMichael, two Irishmen Servants, both balking broad Scotch, one named Roger OMony, a tall pocksetten freckle-faced Fellow, stooping in the Shoulders, his hair cut and wore a linnen cap, a dark brown colour'd Coat and Westcoat, leather breeches,
and a new pair of ***** shoes, he has a double thumb with two nails on one hand. The other named Alexander Sinkler, a short thick well set, surly looking,
long brown hair'd, smooth faced, sharp long nosed fresh coloured fellow, wearing a dark gray coarse karsey new Coat with buttons of the same, a pair of old brown breeches, a pair of gray yarn stockings and a pair of new ***** shoes with two or three lifts, each of them about 4 or 25
Years old. They stole from the said Masters a new yellow stocked trading Gun, marked on the plate of the lock (to the best of our remembrance) R FARMER. and sundry other goods. Run away likewise from the said Masters two ***** Men (which we suspect they have taken with them) one this Country born,
named George , he speaks good English, a short thick well set sensible fellow, the other named Derry , a tall likely young Ibo ***** branded on the
breast I C. Whoever takes them up and brings them to the said Masters or to the publick Goal in Charles Town , shall have 10l. reward for each of the
white Servants and reasonable charges.
N.B. A Hue and Cry is gone after them.

North Carolina militia use



In January of 1756, Sir Charles Hardy reported to the Lords of Trade on “Warlike Stores in the Magazine” of Fort George in New York City.
In addition to six chests belonging to the Independent companies of regulars Hardy mentions that “what is in the possession of private People are chiefly
for Indian trade”
(A Servant of the Crown…papers of John Appy page 52).

On May 12th, 1757 the Virginia House of Burgesses noted that “It appears to us, that the Commanding Officer of the County of King George furnished the Militia
ordered out of that County with 31 Buckaneer and trading Guns, and 112 lbs. of Shot.” (Journals of the House of Burgesses of Virginia, 1758-1761
By Virginia. General Assembly. House of Burgesses, Henry Read McIlwaine, Virginia State Library)

Thank you for the well researched response! I live in Virginia, so I appreciate these examples.

The Fusil De Chasse was an entire different matter and used by natives and frequently the French, right?

 

[Cruzatte]

Thank you for the well researched response! I live in Virginia, so I appreciate these examples.

The Fusil De Chasse was an entire different matter and used by natives and frequently the French, right?

The fusil de chasse de Tulle, was manufactured in the city of Tulle, France from 1691-1741. Later it was copied quite closely by arms makers in St. Etienne, France until the end of the French Regime in Canada. Ostensibly made for arming the French habitants, militia, and professional hunters, a few do show up in trader's ledgers (The Fusil de Tulle in New France 1691-1741 by Russel Bouchard) These arms were contracted by the Ministry of the Marine, whose responsibility was the oversight of France's colonial empire

The bulk of arms destined for the fur trade came from St. Etienne, some from Maubeuge, or Liege. (Kevin Gladysz "The French Trade Gun in North America 1662-1759" out of print) Trade gun history is a fascinating study, in my opinion.

 

[TobJohn]

The fusil de chasse de Tulle, was manufactured in the city of Tulle, France from 1691-1741. Later it was copied quite closely by arms makers in St. Etienne, France until the end of the French Regime in Canada. Ostensibly made for arming the French habitants, militia, and professional hunters, a few do show up in trader's ledgers (The Fusil de Tulle in New France 1691-1741 by Russel Bouchard) These arms were contracted by the Ministry of the Marine, whose responsibility was the oversight of France's colonial empire

The bulk of arms destined for the fur trade came from St. Etienne, some from Maubeuge, or Liege. (Kevin Gladysz "The French Trade Gun in North America 1662-1759" out of print) Trade gun history is a fascinating study, in my opinion.

My interests are generally 100-200 years earlier, but I agree it is very fascinating, which is why I am trying to learn more. The American connection is great draw.

 

[Notchy Bob]

There is a lot of printed information out there, and suggestions listed above include some very good books. A few of these, like the Jim Gordon books and volumes 1 and 2 of The Encyclopedia of Trade Goods (from the Museum of the Fur Trade), are quite expensive... and well worth it if you have the money and the shelf space.

On a more limited budget, For Trade and Treaty is an excellent reference and a great place to start. Trade Guns of the Hudson's Bay Company, by James Gooding, is also excellent, but is limited to HBC guns. Hanson's book, The Northwest Gun, is an old one but is still relevant and is a terrific general reference. I would also suggest Carl Russell's Guns on the Early Frontiers, which has a 40+ page chapter devoted to trade guns and trade rifles.

There are some other references that are very affordable in the Canadian Journal of Arms Collecting. I believe Joe Salter Antiques now has possession of all of the back issues and he sells them for five bucks apiece. Here is a link to his website: Joe Salter: Canadian Journal I have a bunch of them, and they are very good. I would specifically recommend:

"Trade Guns of the North West Company," by Gordon T. Howard in Volume 2, No. 3

"Guns of the American Indians," by James D. Forman in Volume 11, No. 4

"Trade Guns of the Hudson's Bay Company," by James S. Gooding in Volume 13, No. 3

"The Trade Gun in New France, 1690-1760" by Russell Bouchard in Volume 15, No. 1

Finally, there are some excellent references online (in printable PDF format) from the Bulletins published by the American Society of Arms Collectors. These links will open PDF files, but as far as I know they are all safe.

Indian Trade Guns - Charles Hanson, Bulletin 14: 18-23
The Carolina Gun - Lee Burke, Bulletin 65: 2-16
Wilson Cypher Guns - Lee Burke, Bulletin 74: 23-33

Best of luck to you!

Notchy Bob

 

[flconch53]

Great books here ...

Those are all good