Boone and Kenton Rifles? What do you think?

[Eric/WV]

These two guns are in the Herman P. Dean firearms collection in Huntington, WV. One was supposedly owned by Daniel Boone and the other by Simon Kenton. The Boone rifle has "Dan'l Boone", "Col", and some animals carved into the stock. The Kenton rifle appears to be post 1800, but the barrel has 1775 inscribed on it. What do you think?

This is Boone's rifle:

Boone's rifle is on the bottom:

Kenton's rifle:

 

I think some one has had a good joke on folks. Tell them I have another rifle for their collection. It's a rifle that was owned by Christopher Gist.

 

[dlemaster]

I had head of these guns but this is the first time I've seen pictures.
My impression is that the carving on the "Boone" gun was put on much later, and it looks pretty hokey, and that style of checkering on the wrist is a pretty late feature. I've seen this kind of carving applied to modern guns in the 1930s,'40s, and '50s.
The "Kenton" rifle is a pretty nice rifle but it sure looks like a very late flintlock Rifle. I see a problem here. Kenton got religion after he came to Ohio and ceased carrying a gun, he took up carrying a staff for many years. That rifle was probably made in the 1820s at the earliest more likely the '30s and after Kenton quit carrying a gun.
Just my $.02 and I may well be full of prunes.

Regards, Dave

 

I had head of these guns but this is the first time I've seen pictures.
My impression is that the carving on the "Boone" gun was put on much later, and it looks pretty hokey, and that style of checkering on the wrist is a pretty late feature. I've seen this kind of carving applied to modern guns in the 1930s,'40s, and '50s.
The "Kenton" rifle is a pretty nice rifle but it sure looks like a very late flintlock Rifle. I see a problem here. Kenton got religion after he came to Ohio and ceased carrying a gun, he took up carrying a staff for many years. That rifle was probably made in the 1820s at the earliest more likely the '30s and after Kenton quit carrying a gun.
Just my $.02 and I may well be full of prunes.

Regards, Dave

Agree 100%.

 

[AaronT]

Is it possible that the "Kenton rifle" used a barrel from one of Kenton's old guns? I know it's more likely that it's a total con, just wondering.

 

If the barrel was from a Kenton gun we would likely not know it--the owners rarely signed their guns and if they did it was on the patchbox or butt, but not the barrel--the makers rarely signed their guns but if they did it was typically on the barrel. I have seen a rifle with "Daniel Boone" on the top barrel facet--likely not original, although Boone could probably make a gun (his bother was a gunsmith and he learned some too).

 

[dlemaster]

Mike
I would agree that gunsmiths rarely signed their guns, especially in the early period, but I would humbly submit that when they are signed it is most frequently on the top barrel flat. There are several cases where they were signed on the patchbox lid such as the famous A. Verner Gunsmith rifle. I have seen a couple with a name stamped into the side plate that probably indicates the gunsmith and others that are engraved on the side plate which could be either the gunsmith or the owner, and even more rarely on the lock plate.

Respectfully, Dave

 

[Ridge]

"Boone's" rifle wouldn't look bad if it weren't for the carving and the checkering.

That things hideous!

 

I think that is what I said: if the gunmaker signed it it is generally on the barrel top. Owners if they marked their guns did it somewhere else, typically the box or butt...but, there are exceptions to everything.

 

[trent/OH]

I know Kenton was a very tall man, and something tells me Boone was tall also. They'd have rifles with long lengths of pull. Do these rifles support this theory?

 

[Eric/WV]

I read a book on Boone, and it said that he was around 5'7".

 

I do a reenactment at the Nathan Boone Home, on Femme Osage Creek near Defiance, Missouri where Dan'l lived the last 20+ years of his life. It's pretty well documented that Boone was "average" height, 5'7" to 5'9". Nathan, Boone and Rebecca's youngest son, was some taller than Daddy.

Vic

 

[dlemaster]

Mike I apologise. Man I was having a senior moment! I reread your post twice before I saw my mistake. Sorry, I knew that you would know that.

Regards, Dave

 

[Bountyhunter]

I could be wrong, I was once before, but that carved rifle has the appearances of being a Tryon Indian Rifle. If it is, it would have been in the 1837-1855 range, and yes they were checkered with a crude bold checkering. Unusual for Indian rifles, the checkering pattern and the trigger guard closely resemble the Tryon. The length of pull on them was typically short also, 12-1/2" to 13-1/2".

At any rate, it appears to be a post 1815 rifle.

 

[Okwaho]

I think based on a poor picture that this gun is a cobbled up mish mash or a very late gun of totally unknown antecedents.It has a very Germanic high stepped wrist and a modern looking guard. The lock with it's modern cock is rather new looking.Tryon made some Northwest guns but this gun doesn't match or even faintly resemble any Northwest gun that I have seen illustrated.I haven't seen the opposite side nor the barrel but unless there is something to change my mind I believe that this is a fantasy gun pure and simple.The carving on the butt looks like pure Victorian or maybe Edwardian decoration.
Tom Patton




Tom Patton

 

[smoothshooter]

I agree with you on the " Boone " gun being hokey, and and the other gun probably never belonged to Kenton. However, just because Kenton quit carrying a gun every day doesn't necessarily mean he totally gave up hunting, or even owning guns. Sincerely, Smoothshooter

 

[kaintuck]

Boone rifle?
:hmm: :rotf:

 

[Rifleman1776]

I do a reenactment at the Nathan Boone Home, on Femme Osage Creek near Defiance, Missouri where Dan'l lived the last 20+ years of his life. It's pretty well documented that Boone was "average" height, 5'7" to 5'9". Nathan, Boone and Rebecca's youngest son, was some taller than Daddy.

Vic

There was an old timer, well known in Missouri, named Marshall Hooker. I met him several times. He owned a rifle he claimed was Boone's. I held it and had a picture taken with him and the rifle. I recall it had a seriously coned muzzle. Marshall made replicas of the rifle and sold them. Not meaning to mar his memory but they were not very well made rifles. Boone, by reputation was fairly short, stout and muscular. Hooker and the rifle have been mentioned in ml publications a number of times over the years.

 

[Dphar]

A great deal of what we see is fake. Unless very well documented from before the Civil War I would be skeptical of rifles. I would even distrust the families.
When he became a sports writer Bat Masterson used to keep a SAA Colt in his desk to sell to the gullible. So there were a lot of SAAs out there bought from Masterson that he never used but rather bought in some Pawn Shop fro resale to people who came by asking questions. If there is money involved many people will lie.

Almost everything has been faked at some time or another. Powder horns especially. These have been faked commercially since at least the 1930s and the Rev-War items surely from the 1870s when the Centennial of the Revolution occurred.
The length of the rifle is not a judge of the owners height. "4 foot" barrels were common here back to at least the F&I War and likely before.

So tinware, powder horns, knives, guns and almost anything else you can think of has been faked. Museums, for example, were buying fake powder horns for display in the 1920s-30s or at least there is one letter in existence that offers a museum powder horns from any time period with a 30 day delivery.
The carved rifle is surely a fake, but remember his brother Squire was a trained gunsmith and surely could do carving. But this is in a modern style from the looks of it. The rifle looks like its 1820s-40s New England to me. Kenton rifle? Hard to say from this distance. But it would need iron clad provenance. Remember both these men surely owned rifles late in life so they don't have to be "early". Daniel lost at least a couple of rifles to the Indians and Kenton at least one during the early years in Kentucky.
So while ANYTHING is possible, the rifles are probably not rifles used by Kenton or Boone.
Kenton is said to have had a double barrel rifle at one time. Likely a swivel breech. This was documented in some shipping manifest from the time. It was made in PA and shipped down the Ohio by boat.

Dan

 

[Mickc01]

Boone rifle?
:hmm: :rotf:

Kaintuck says it all.... :rotf: :rotf: :rotf:

I can't believe a "museum" would actually exhibit this thing. And that's just my two cents.

Oh, anyone care to comment on the bag and horn?