Bow and arrow verses Flint Guns

[dave_person]

Hi,
For those wanting scientific documentation about the effects of introduced diseases on native Americans during early colonization, here is a link:
https://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/16/2/09-0276_article

Also Charles Mann's two books "1491", about the native Americans before Columbus and "1493", about them after European contact are excellent synopses of current knowledge. As always, Jared Diamond's "Guns, Germs, and Steel" is a great read.

dave

 

[GBG]

I've often wondered why Natives didn't make widespread use of poison on their arrows. There are a number of plants in the U.S. containing poisons that are fast acting, and/or cause a gruesome, agonizing death that would terrify any observer. There is one plant that produces a deadly, fast acting neurotoxin for which there is no known antidote even today.

Also, does anyone know of a historical account where Natives plunged their arrowheads into fresh feces just before shooting? It turns the arrow into a quickly and easily improvised biological weapon. I've read European archers used this method to make a superficial wound become a lethal infection.

 

[M. De Land]

I've often wondered why Natives didn't make widespread use of poison on their arrows. There are a number of plants in the U.S. containing poisons that are fast acting, and/or cause a gruesome, agonizing death that would terrify any observer. There is one plant that produces a deadly, fast acting neurotoxin for which there is no known antidote even today.

Also, does anyone know of a historical account where Natives plunged their arrowheads into fresh feces just before shooting? It turns the arrow into a quickly and easily improvised biological weapon. I've read European archers used this method to make a superficial wound become a lethal infection.

Wow, another interesting sidebar to the original premise. I love how these discussions morph into all sorts of related issues that probably did play some part wither major or minor in the big picture as a whole of our composite histories. It certainly broadens my thought on our history and mechanics of how it all potentially evolved and played out.

 

[M. De Land]

Hi,
For those wanting scientific documentation about the effects of introduced diseases on native Americans during early colonization, here is a link:
https://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/16/2/09-0276_article

Also Charles Mann's two books "1491", about the native Americans before Columbus and "1493", about them after European contact are excellent synopses of current knowledge. As always, Jared Diamond's "Guns, Germs, and Steel" is a great read.

dave

We know the Norsemen were making repeated forays into North America long before Columbus's contact and the Jamestown and Roanoke settlements. The Vikings would have probably been the original hosts of infectious disease contagion in North America as they were pillaging England, Wales Scotland and I believe France as well.
I always get a kick out of global warming being attributed solely to fossil fuel use when anthropology reveals Viking settlements in Greenland that grew grapes in vineyards. Evidently Greenland was a lot warmer a thousand years ago than it is today and probably explains how and why the Norsemen were able to traverse the open seas in their long boats to reach North America and contact with Eastern seaboard Native Americans.

 

[SPQR70AD]

I think it is unrealistic to compare hunting with what happens in a battle regardless of whether you are using a bow or a rifle. In hunting you can take careful aim and not likely the Deer is going to be shooting back. Granted if I was facing a Grizzly I would want the largest caliber rifle I could find and have several friends with similar rifles to back me up but even then the bear can't do anything till he gets to you. Most of the people, depending on where they were hit by either in a battle would survive the initial wound. Yes many would later die from infections. Both would be limited in how many times you could shoot. Arrows took time to make and powder and lead had to be purchased. Contrary to the movies there wouldn't be a lot of indiscriminate shooting being done with either. I just read an article yesterday about an individual who spent several decades in the Texas Rangers, I already forgot his name, getting old sucks. Well over the years he was wounded 20 times by bullets and arrows. In a skirmish with the Comanche's he was listed as having 3 grievous wounds and was left for dead. He made it back to the headquarters on his own recovered and rejoined the Rangers, He went on to die of old age.
The native tribes contributed to their own destruction by joining the Colonist's in fighting other tribes that they considered their enemies.

the indian scouts helped the army to fight against other indian tribes that raided and killed them stole their horses and women tortured them made some slaves and sometimes ate them. oops indians were peaceful spiritual people

 

[Stykbow]

When I was a teenager I remember seeing a human skull with a stone arrowhead buried in the side. It was found during construction of Norris Dam here in East Tennessee and was at the Lenoir Museum. I believe it has since been returned to the indians. It was pretty neat to see.

 

[earlwb]

Yes, Greenland got its name from being lush and green a 1000 years ago. The Viking colony there petitioned the pope at the time for their own Bishop too. Shortly after that the mini-ice age hit. Greenland became a white wonderland instead. The Viking colony died from starvation for the most part. The indigenous peoples used a seal, and whale food source while the Vikings depended on farm animals and growing crops. None of those fair well in snow and ice.

 

[Mike in FL]

I have always wondered how white foreigners " LIke Me" ever defeated the native American red man with single shot flint guns when used with in 30 yards or so as all the advantage was with the rapid fire bow and arrow!
I still get as much enjoyment out of constructing and shooting heat treated Hickory self bows with modern carbon shaft arrows as gun making and shooting black powder.

I also mix modern stuff with historical. No law against it and I'm all for doing what works. I'm just a tad curious about self bows and carbon arrows. I've been into traditional archery for 60 years but never could adjust my brain to use anything other than woo arrows; just to much of a gap between the old and the new. I once had a C. Sharps rifle in 45/120. Never could get it to shoot lead bullets like the originals unless I used modern jacketed bullets. But that made me crazy; I sure couldn't immulate that to the 1880s buffalo hunters. That makes sense?

 

[Mike in FL]

I just finished Carbine and Lance, a book from 1936 taken from military records and first hand accounts of the Ft Sill area from 1850 to 1910.
The bow was not always fatal with one arrow. There are many reports of person's shot by one arrow who survived. So a single arrow might not put you out of the fight.
A 50 caliber or much larger ball, OTOH, very well may go through and though and end you much faster.
Also, a one on one fight might turn out for the smoothbore, if the person ignored the pain and quickly returned fire with their muzzleloader. And a bow isn't a Lazer armed weapon, they missed as well.
One other thing; families were HUGE BITD, if attacked at home, a small squad were waiting to repel boarders. Many accounts of stolen livestock, but fatalities were few, usually.
It's a great book, the 7th cavalry with their Blonde Haired leader was stationed at Sill in the '60s, and had some very heavy engagements.
Also, the Spencer carbine was the Standard Issue weapon for cavalry West of the Mississippi until 1874, when Trooper's grudgingly turned them in for the Springfield.
I wonder how many Troopers bought their Spencer for the Surplus price of $10 and kept it in a saddle boot?

BITD? I gotta wonder how many had to study on that.

 

[waksupi]

I also mix modern stuff with historical. No law against it and I'm all for doing what works. I'm just a tad curious about self bows and carbon arrows. I've been into traditional archery for 60 years but never could adjust my brain to use anything other than woo arrows; just to much of a gap between the old and the new. I once had a C. Sharps rifle in 45/120. Never could get it to shoot lead bullets like the originals unless I used modern jacketed bullets. But that made me crazy; I sure couldn't immulate that to the 1880s buffalo hunters. That makes sense?

Carbon arrows in a self bow is equivalent to dry firing the bow.

 

[snakebit]

Carbon arrows and self bows? Watch out, the trad police will call on you.

Carbon was wood at some point

 

[sussexmuzllodr]

If the spine on a Carbon Arrow was relevant to the poundage on a self bow then why cannot it be used? It would just have to be refletched using feathers.
it would still be subjected to "Archers Paradox" just as everything else. Just a shaft with different material

 

[GREENSWLDE]

Arrows -V- Ball..
Better Disapline and Tactics used by the Romans in 55/50 BC Beat the Locals under Boudica.
Same went for Cowboys and Indians 8 Centuries later ..O.D.

 

[smoothshooter]

I have always wondered how white foreigners " LIke Me" ever defeated the native American red man with single shot flint guns when used with in 30 yards or so as all the advantage was with the rapid fire bow and arrow!
I still get as much enjoyment out of constructing and shooting heat treated Hickory self bows with modern carbon shaft arrows as gun making and shooting black powder.

It took years to make a good bow shooter.
Almost anyone could be trained into being a passable musket shooter in few days.

 

[Mike in FL]

If the spine on a Carbon Arrow was relevant to the poundage on a self bow then why cannot it be used? It would just have to be refletched using feathers.
it would still be subjected to "Archers Paradox" just as everything else. Just a shaft with different material

Yes, I'm sure the correct spine could be chosen. It just seems incongruous to me but that's just me.

 

[Ed C.]

So many interesting facts and opinions brought forward in this thread. Disease, starvation, military campaigns, corruption all played into the demise of Native Americans. IMPO, the big crushing force was sheer numbers of settlers moving west. We had a comparatively inexhaustible supply of people to flood their lands.

 

[sussexmuzllodr]

Yes, I'm sure the correct spine could be chosen. It just seems incongruous to me but that's just me.

Well thats the thing about a bow it can always be cobbled to work.
Caps or flints nor required nor weather dependent.
got the job done for thousands of Years.

 

[sussexmuzllodr]

how about a compromise? A lead ball threaded onto the tip of an Arrow.

 

[snakebit]

Don't forget the Thompson brothers. They used bows before, and after the Civil War. Post Civil War by necessity (they fought for the south), since their rifles were confiscated.

 

[M. De Land]

how about a compromise? A lead ball threaded onto the tip of an Arrow.

That is basically what we call a blunt for shooting birds and other small game not requiring a point.
The carbon shaft, feather fletched arrows work perfectly in my self bows and are much sturdier, straighter and of consistent weight. Actually they are superior in every practical way than are traditional wood arrows.
I still have a couple of fine fiberglass bows ( Bear long bow and Wing Hunter) but like to make composite wood and heat treated hickory self bows for my kids and grand kids.
Compound bows are taboo for me as I consider them machines not true bows!
Arrows to me are just projectiles, like bullets are to guns, the better the quality the better the accuracy which is what I desire, it's the launching mechanism I'm into making wither gun or bow.